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"hotness", An experiment in "meta-rating"
Smitty Jones
post Feb 19 2005, 06:27
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hey, will you make it optional to use YYYYMMDD or YYYY-MM-DD? i changed all my tagging to the first for hotness to begin with, and don't really feel like changing it back wink.gif

i'd love you if you did!

edit: changed some stuff!

This post has been edited by Smitty Jones: Feb 19 2005, 06:28
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topdownjimmy
post Feb 19 2005, 16:56
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QUOTE (Smitty Jones @ Feb 19 2005, 12:27 AM)
hey, will you make it optional to use YYYYMMDD or YYYY-MM-DD?  i changed all my tagging to the first for hotness to begin with, and don't really feel like changing it back wink.gif

i'd love you if you did!

edit:  changed some stuff!
*


A masstagger script is available here to convert YYYYMMDD to YYYY-MM-DD.
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Lyx
post Feb 19 2005, 19:43
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@topdownjimmy

In your code when calculating the "system-days since millenium" what is this codeline for?
CODE
$ifequal($mod(%_system_year%,4),0,$ifgreater(%_system_month%,2,1,0),0),


- Lyx


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topdownjimmy
post Feb 19 2005, 20:36
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QUOTE (Lyx @ Feb 19 2005, 01:43 PM)
@topdownjimmy

In your code when calculating the "system-days since millenium" what is this codeline for?
CODE
$ifequal($mod(%_system_year%,4),0,$ifgreater(%_system_month%,2,1,0),0),


- Lyx
*


That accounts (very poorly) for the extra day in a leap year. I think I stole that line from someone else's code, and I'm sure it made more sense in its original context. I never bothered to clean it up because I never thought it'd be taken seriously. wink.gif I suppose it should be more like:

CODE
$add($div($right(%_system_year%,2),4),$if($or($greater(%_system_month%,2),$greater($mod(%_system_year%,4),0)),1,0))


That's a stab at it, and I'm assuming that $div() operations with remainders round down to the greatest integer. Correct? unsure.gif
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Lyx
post Feb 19 2005, 20:54
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okay, thanks for explaining this. So i can just scrap this line if i dont need it THAT accurate to save resources.


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topdownjimmy
post Feb 19 2005, 20:56
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QUOTE (Lyx @ Feb 19 2005, 02:54 PM)
okay, thanks for explaining this. So i can just scrap this line if i dont need it THAT accurate to save resources.
*


Are you working on something more along the lines of what you were expecting?, like something that will predict what you might be interested in listening to? How will that work?
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hit_ny
post Feb 19 2005, 21:25
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I would like to pose a fundamental question.

What is the point of a track's hotness ? What does it tell you about your collection ?

I approach this by having a list that would tell me what were the best albums i listened to in the last week/month(s) etc using avg album scores.

Still trying to get my head around this hotness concept.

This post has been edited by hit_ny: Feb 19 2005, 21:25
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addicted
post Feb 19 2005, 21:31
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so you mean you rate all your albums and then sort them and then make a list? i dont quite understand what you mean by list...

hotness is a value related to the frequency of play vs the length of time it has been in the playlist vs your personal rating.

sounds like an automated version of what you are doing.
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Lyx
post Feb 19 2005, 22:20
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QUOTE (topdownjimmy @ Feb 19 2005, 09:56 PM)
Are you working on something more along the lines of what you were expecting?, like something that will predict what you might be interested in listening to?  How will that work?
*


Nope, i will only think about that when a playcount-plugin exists which generates the first_played-tag automatically. I'm not gonna implement features with exotic requirements.

What i'm working on is just checking if you listened to a track today, and converting the date of recently played tracks to "yesterday", "2 days ago", etc.

- Lyx


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hit_ny
post Feb 19 2005, 23:07
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QUOTE (addicted @ Feb 19 2005, 08:31 PM)
so you mean you rate all your albums and then sort them and then make a list? i dont quite understand what you mean by list...

hotness is a value related to the frequency of play vs the length of time it has been in the playlist vs your personal rating.

sounds like an automated version of what you are doing.
*


I use JRiver media center for this. I get an avg score for an album. A smartlist then shows me a list of albums that have a avg rating sorted either by series, artist etc.

im trying to understand the usefulness of this hotness concept, saying hotness is the frequency of play vs the length of time it has been in the playlist vs your personal rating does not make it clear.

What would you use hotness for ?
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upNorth
post Feb 19 2005, 23:21
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It's intended to show you if a track is hot or not. It is hot if you give it a high rating, and listen to it frequently. As time passes by, its hotness decreases, and you have to listen to it some more to make it hot again.

For short, you can think of it as your personal chart, calculated from a set of parameters. Kind of like the charts on e.g. MTV

Note: I haven't read through the code, and I can't use it with it's full functionality as I don't have an ADDED tag, so the above is just my impression of what it's trying to achieve.

Edit: minor correction


This post has been edited by upNorth: Feb 19 2005, 23:22
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falconfox
post Feb 20 2005, 00:00
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@ topdownjimmy:
hey can you post your columns configuration file so i can hopefully get your code to start working. it might help me figure out what i am doing wrong.

Thanks
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Lyx
post Feb 20 2005, 07:35
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I've thought about this whole hotness-idea a bit. And currently, i don't see much reason to implement it, even with first_played. Sure, its a very interesting experiment - but its like killing flies with stealth-bombers. Simply being able to sort by play-frequency + a lock-period for new tracks should already be enough to deliver something which in a real-world-scenario comes close to what you're doing. And as soon as no visual-display on a fixed scale is necessary anymore(so, if the user would just look at his play-frequency and know by himself if thats a high number for his habits or not), then you also don't need to play with decay and frequency-variables.

Pragmatic and boring? Yes, maybe - but its the result which counts for me. And in this case, it seems to me as if this would automate something, which every user knows just by looking at a play-freq. stat.

In short, while the whole experiment was very interesting to think through, i think its a solution to a non-existant problem. Well, maybe not non-existant, but with way easier methods to solve.

- Lyx


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hit_ny
post Feb 20 2005, 09:32
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QUOTE (upNorth @ Feb 19 2005, 10:21 PM)
It's intended to show you if a track is hot or not. It is hot if you give it a high rating, and listen to it frequently. As time passes by, its hotness decreases, and you have to listen to it some more to make it hot again.

For short, you can think of it as your personal chart, calculated from a set of parameters. Kind of like the charts on e.g. MTV


Edit: minor correction

*


ok, so i can see a list of tracks that were recently heard, the ones that were rated higher than others would persist longer. As time went on, i would have this list of tracks there.

But if i want to know the best tracks i listened to say in the last week, month(s), its possible to get this from a query.

The metaphor i was using to understand this hotness concept is the flame icons you see on some bulletin boards when a topic recieves a lot or replies or views. Which led me to think the hotness idea would be useful in a multi-user environment (could be as low as 2 users even), if a library was shared, to get an idea of what track was "hot" or popular, taking into account each users individual rating for the track.

With only one user, it seems to offer little maybe we give it some more time and more will be emerge or add diferent variables into the mix.
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topdownjimmy
post Feb 20 2005, 15:20
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QUOTE (upNorth @ Feb 19 2005, 05:21 PM)
It's intended to show you if a track is hot or not. It is hot if you give it a high rating, and listen to it frequently. As time passes by, its hotness decreases, and you have to listen to it some more to make it hot again.

For short, you can think of it as your personal chart, calculated from a set of parameters. Kind of like the charts on e.g. MTV
*


Exactly. In short: it's "kinda cool." wink.gif

I never expected it to get this much attention, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest that people like Lyx should implement it in the configs they make available. It was just a fun project for me, and I figured if I found it interesting, maybe other people would too. If you disagree with the methodology laid out in the first post, this just isn't for you.
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topdownjimmy
post Feb 20 2005, 16:21
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QUOTE (falconfox @ Feb 19 2005, 06:00 PM)
@ topdownjimmy:
hey can you post your columns configuration file so i can hopefully get your code to start working. it might help me figure out what i am doing wrong.

Thanks
*


Uploaded:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=275338
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falconfox
post Feb 21 2005, 01:15
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QUOTE (topdownjimmy @ Feb 20 2005, 09:21 AM)
QUOTE (falconfox @ Feb 19 2005, 06:00 PM)
@ topdownjimmy:
hey can you post your columns configuration file so i can hopefully get your code to start working. it might help me figure out what i am doing wrong.

Thanks
*


Uploaded:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=275338
*



This is really wierd, when i used your config, it worked, then when i use mine it gives ?. i copied your exact code into my config and still nothing, maybe there is a conflict with azrael and hotness. that is too bad, i am going to try to change variable names and see if i can get it working...
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falconfox
post Feb 21 2005, 02:20
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I got it to work finally. i found out that i needed to paste the code at the *top* of the globals section, instead of the bottom. I don't really know why that makes a difference but it does. thanks and this is sweet!
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lav-chan
post Feb 21 2005, 17:16
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Maybe i'm totally confused about how this works, but i think i'm having a problem. :/


I added the hotness code (verbatim) to my globals thing in Columns UI. I have LAST_PLAYED and ADDED (both in YYYY-MM-DD HH:mm:ss format) in my tags, and PLAY_COUNTER is in there too, so i have all the required junk.

Then i make my column to show the hotness level, and it appears to work at first. (I'm not using any fancy graphics or anything for now, i'm just putting out the raw %_hotness% thing.) The songs without LAST_PLAYED/ADDED/PLAY_COUNTER appear as '0', which makes sense to me. But then after i start playing songs, i get totally confused.

You say that %_hotness% is supposed to show up on a scale of 100, but mine doesn't. If i play a song once, the number changes from 0 to 26900. If i play it again, it goes to 13500. If i play it again it goes to 9033, and then to 6800, and then to 5460, and so forth. I have no idea why it does this, it makes zero sense to me. Never mind the fact that it's not showing up on a scale of 100... shouldn't it get, you know, hotter as i play it more? Why's it going down?

Did i do something wrong, or am i just not understanding how this works? :(


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jkwarras
post Feb 21 2005, 18:37
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QUOTE (Lav @ Feb 21 2005, 08:16 AM)
I have LAST_PLAYED and ADDED (both in YYYY-MM-DD HH:mm:ss format) in my tags,
*

I think that %added% must be in YYYYMMDD format (without -). It's what I'm using and it works.


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lav-chan
post Feb 21 2005, 20:22
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If that's the case, that's stupid (why two different formats?), but, um....

I tried it anyway (YYYYMMDD), and there was no change. It went from 26900 to 13500 just like it has been. :p


I would look through the code myself and try to figure it out, but this is just beyond me. Formatting strings i can deal with, but looking at the code for this gives me a head ache. :(


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Lyx
post Feb 21 2005, 20:51
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QUOTE (Lav @ Feb 21 2005, 09:22 PM)
If that's the case, that's stupid

Yes, it is.

QUOTE (Lav @ Feb 21 2005, 09:22 PM)
(why two different formats?), but, um....

Because you cannot standardize all plugins which make use of date overnight. The whole last_played thingie is just a few days old. The choice is: either leave the chaos as it is, or do something about it. If something is done about it, then there naturally is a "transition-phase" of even more increased chaos. A first_played-tag with the same format as last_played was already proposed. Whats missing is someone who grabs the playcount source, does the proposed changes and then releases it. Once that happened you suddenly have a single plugin which handles all play-stats issues in a uniform-way.

- Lyx

This post has been edited by Lyx: Feb 21 2005, 20:53


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lav-chan
post Feb 21 2005, 21:00
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Yes, but he said that he added... the... ADDED... manually, which is why i would figure that it would be the same format. If you're going to do it yourself, you might as well make it consistent. :/

But oh well, i don't really care if it's different. The point is that it does the same thing either way. :(

This post has been edited by Lav: Feb 21 2005, 21:01


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topdownjimmy
post Feb 22 2005, 03:49
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QUOTE (Lav @ Feb 21 2005, 03:00 PM)
Yes, but he said that he added... the... ADDED... manually, which is why i would figure that it would be the same format. If you're going to do it yourself, you might as well make it consistent. :/

But oh well, i don't really care if it's different. The point is that it does the same thing either way. sad.gif
*


It's not entirely manual. I use a plugin that adds the tag in that format, although I do have to use the context menu to apply it. I figured the use of this plugin (though not wide-spread, as far as I know) is as close to a standard as we have right now. There's a link to the plugin in the first post.

QUOTE (Lav)
It went from 26900 to 13500 just like it has been.

What went from 26900 to 13500?
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lav-chan
post Feb 22 2005, 06:44
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I have a column with nothing in it but %_hotness%. When there's no PLAY_COUNTER or LAST_PLAYED or whatever, it just shows up as 0. (Which makes sense.) But when i play the song and it updates the play counter, it (%_hotness%) changes from 0 to 26900. When i play the song again it changes to 13500. And so on, it keeps decreasing like that, i already gave the specific numbers above if that matters.

But... i'm guessing that it isn't s'posed to do that at all? <_<


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