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Topic: sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics (Read 36564 times) previous topic - next topic
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sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-des...yths-and-truths


Audioholics (Gene Della Salla, really) has this weird and irritating hate/love relationship with DBTs...he's spent a lot of energy on his site aiming darts at pro-DBT audiophiles and their arguments, while usually admitting, somewhere near the end, that DBTs and science really do work.

Anyway I addressed what I thought  were some of the most egregious strawmen here:


http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/louds...tml#post1025440


sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #1 –

Quote
krabapple a forum troll idiot that just begs for attention

Wow, what have you said to earn that reputation?? I hope it wasn't just because of dissenting opinions.

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Hotsoup on
Quote
krabapple a forum troll idiot that just begs for attention

Wow, what have you said to earn that reputation?? I hope it wasn't just because of dissenting opinions.


It's because Gene published an earlier, even more strawman-filled, article like this.  And I called him on it then too. (EDIT: the rep itself arises from users giving you 'green'' or 'red' reputation points.  You don't get to see who the 'users' are.  You do get to see their comments.)



In that case Sean Olive even appeared on the comments thread to gently correct some of his fulminations.  I notice in this new article Gene (or whoever wrote it) is usually crediting Harman with good practices.  So I'm really curious who these nefarious DBT-abusing loudspeaker manufacturers are?

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #3 –
to be clear, "forum troll idiot that just begs for attention" is one of the reputation categories automatically applied when a certain level of red or green is reached.  It's not just for me ;>

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Hotsoup on
Quote
krabapple a forum troll idiot that just begs for attention

Wow, what have you said to earn that reputation?? I hope it wasn't just because of dissenting opinions.


I would like to apologize in advance because I have lurked here for some time, but felt the need to register so that I could back up what krabapple is saying WRT the "troll" designation. I am sincere when I say I'm hoping this post isn't a violation of the TOS. I'm not here to bash.

But, the same thing happened to me on their forum. I was called an idiot and a troll for simply suggesting a certain subwoofer company to a newb who was asking for suggestions. And also for buying separates instead of a receiver. And when I mentioned that adding a standalone DAC to my 15 y.o. receiver resulted in an improvement, that's when things really went downhill. And I made that statement as someone whose 43 y.o. ears can't hear the difference between a 256kbps VBR AAC and a CD.

After the DAC statement I was banned for the reason: spamming message board.

*sigh*

I read krabapple's very well thought out and respectfully presented rebuttals on that thread. And I immediately knew what kind of treatment he was in for. It's a shame, I don't understand why these communities act as they do. It's not as though either Audioholics or HydrogenAudio are promoting cable elevators, or the like. My goodness, people.

I hope, once again, this post is in good taste and not taken in a way I didn't intend. Just wanted to back up a fellow rational enthusiast.


*edit*

One other thing that earned me "bad rep" was that I claimed I wasn't satisfied with the room correction software that my pre-amp came with and that I preferred the "flat" settings it came with from the factory. Just personal preference, it wasn't like I was dumping on all room correction software.

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #5 –
Quote from: krabapple on
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-des...yths-and-truths


Audioholics (Gene Della Salla, really) has this weird and irritating hate/love relationship with DBTs...he's spent a lot of energy on his site aiming darts at pro-DBT audiophiles and their arguments, while usually admitting, somewhere near the end, that DBTs and science really do work.

Anyway I addressed what I thought  were some of the most egregious strawmen here:


http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/louds...tml#post1025440



As I read the above article, most of Mr. De Scala's negative comments relate to trying to use ABX for evaluating speakers.  There is now a spectrum of kinds of DBTs that are available and well documented, such as ABC/hr and Mushra plus the methodologies used by Harman. IMO as the inventor of ABX any of them would be a better choice than ABX. Anybody who claims to be well-informed and then picks the worst tool for the job gets only what he deserves.

That's so wrong headed I would sincerely hope that the authors regain their senses and pull the whole thing and apologize for it. I've had a fair amount of respect for their previous efforts related to audio testing, and really hoped that they wouldn't fall into this hole.

BTW the following appears to me to be the most telling sentence in the whole piece:

"Over our 14 year history of testing loudspeakers at Audioholics, we’ve run both controlled SBT’s and sighted listening tests."

IOW its hard to escape the idea that they have DBT phobia. Since a SBT is a defective DBT, and a sighted is a joke, my first guess is that they prize control over the end results more than reliability or accuracy. Sic Transit Gloria.
 

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #6 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Quote from: Hotsoup on
Quote
krabapple a forum troll idiot that just begs for attention

Wow, what have you said to earn that reputation?? I hope it wasn't just because of dissenting opinions.


It's because Gene published an earlier, even more strawman-filled, article like this.  And I called him on it then too. (EDIT: the rep itself arises from users giving you 'green'' or 'red' reputation points.  You don't get to see who the 'users' are.  You do get to see their comments.)



In that case Sean Olive even appeared on the comments thread to gently correct some of his fulminations.  I notice in this new article Gene (or whoever wrote it) is usually crediting Harman with good practices.  So I'm really curious who these nefarious DBT-abusing loudspeaker manufacturers are?


Initially Gene mentioned no companies,  basically lumping all companies that practiced double-blind tests as nefarious. Harman is only given credit because Floyd Toole has the time and patience to correct his mis-statements on how we do subjective and objective loudspeaker measurements.  Gene's main issues with double-blind testing seem to be the following:

1. Companies use employees as listening subjects, therefore they are biased.
    My Answer:  Yes, we train employees as listeners but we also repeat and validate our results using external naive listeners: we get much the same results, which tells me the trained employees are not biased. They are just more discriminating and reliable in fact about 5 times better than the average audio reviewer we've tested.

2. Companies use single speaker comparisons  -- not stereo comparisons -- hence they are invalid.
      My Answer: We have done both mono and stereo comparisons and the results track well. Single speaker comparisons tend to generate more discriminating responses and less noise, so we prefer to conduct the tests in mono. We also control loudspeaker positional biases via our automated speaker mover, which most companies or reviewers don't bother to do.

3. Speaker companies seem to always win the tests - so they must be flawed
      My Answer: When speakers lose the tests, the test results aren't reported. Companies usually only report test results that are positive. No surprise there. I have actually reported results in AES papers where our products didn't place first. No one knows because the results are coded.  The point of our tests is to use the information to improve the speaker until places first. Otherwise, why bother to do the test in the first place?

4. Companies report the tests are DB when they are SB because either the subjects have learned the sound of the speakers, the experimenters knows the identities of the speakers during the test and when they do the statistical analysis.

      My Answer: Maybe the experimenter knows the speakers in the test; but during the test, the computer randomizes the order in which the speakers are presented and the listener controls the switching. The experimenter has no control over the running of the test. The computer also does the statistical analysis of results, so the experimenter really has no influence on the analysis of the test results. If the data is coded then the experimenter really can't tweak the results.  Again, the tests can always be repeated with external listeners to validate the results.

With our Virtual Headphone tests that run on an iPad we have been doing DBT on headphones in different countries using external listeners, and found that we get essentially the same results as using our trained internal listeners. So, I feel comfortable that our internal listeners are not giving us biased results.

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #7 –
I'd trust reviewers a lot more if they would at least attempt to do some of the things Harman is doing!  At least we know there is one manufacturer putting-in the effort and taking this stuff seriously. 

And, I'd like to know the reviewer's opinion before he knows the manufacturer or the price (and before he sees the thing, if possible... might be tricky with microphones).

The only reviews I read regularly are in Recording Magazine, and they are sometimes interesting but about as useful as a manufacturer's press release.

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #8 –
fwiw, Audioholics banned me today after I quoted Sean Olive's HA comments about their Loudspeaker DBT article. 

I'd been a member there for quite a few years but Gene Della Salla never quite got around to 'correcting' my reputation. 

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #9 –
Congrats!!! Welcome to the club. 
My final straw ban was trying to explain the (possible) benefit of passive biamping to the insects.
Got them buzzing. They're very good at buzzing, not so good at understanding basic logic or science. 
Ignorance is bliss....

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #10 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Congrats!!! Welcome to the club. 
My final straw ban was trying to explain the (possible) benefit of passive biamping to the insects.
Got them buzzing. They're very good at buzzing, not so good at understanding basic logic or science. 
Ignorance is bliss....

cheers,

AJ



Apprently it was this guy  who did the hatchet job on me yesterday.  On a thread about sonic differences between amps.  To their credit, the posts I made are all still there.

Anyway there are absolutely some sensible heads there  -- mtrycrafts, some others -- people who could (and possibly do) thrive on HA too, and the site publishes some interesting articles , and they at least pay lip service to the idea of controlled testing, but the leadership (moderators) have some serious power issues.  A few years back  one of them put a  'shadowban'  on me (where you show as a member in good standing, but no one can see your posts), after he pooh-poohed evolution as some sort of scientific fraud and I took him to task for it.

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #11 –
Isn't it great when adults act like children?

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #12 –
Hah, I also got banned in another "audio" forum for pointing out that children most likely do not have supernatural perceptive powers (a belief held by the moderator).
"I hear it when I see it."

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #13 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Apprently it was this guy  who did the hatchet job on me yesterday.  On a thread about sonic differences between amps.  To their credit, the posts I made are all still there.


Ah, Steve Munz. I met him here, had a couple beers, nice guy in person. 
I was a bit puzzled looking at the speaker DBT thread (your SO post is still there), but now I see there was an amp thread also. Funny stuff. You know Gene is in Tampa? Would love to participate if he ever gets around to the amp DBT.
We've had correspondence and he's been invited to the local audio club meets many times and promised to do so....to no avail. Not holding my breath on any of that. At least I went out as helpful, not a forum troll.   
I find the whole "ratings" system, bizarre.


Quote from: krabapple on
Anyway there are absolutely some sensible heads there  -- mtrycrafts, some others -- people who could (and possibly do) thrive on HA too, and the site publishes some interesting articles , and they at least pay lip service to the idea of controlled testing, but the leadership (moderators) have some serious power issues.  A few years back  one of them put a  'shadowban'  on me (where you show as a member in good standing, but no one can see your posts), after he pooh-poohed evolution as some sort of scientific fraud and I took him to task for it.

Yes, the site is far more rational than 99% of audio forums and definitely has a scientific approach. But like any site, the members will still reflect general population...and knowledge, critical thinking skills, logic, reason, etc.
To be quite honest, I also question some of the issues Gene raises as well. Here too. Maybe you can ask jj his thoughts on testing stereo speakers in mono. Or codecs.
The other problem is repeatability. Who else has a shuffler to see if the stereo vs mono results are repeatable?
Doesn't invalidate the results. Just raises questions for me. I certainly don't have one to try.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #14 –
Quote from: xnor on
Hah, I also got banned in another "audio" forum for pointing out that children most likely do not have supernatural perceptive powers (a belief held by the moderator).


Presumably not mine.

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #15 –
Let's set the record straight.

Krab explicitly requested to have his account deleted, and so it was.  He was not banned for posting SO's responses.  He's welcome back any time he wants.  Steve actually gave him positive rep points after the post he linked above in an effort to keep him around.  And the chicklet ratings are short lived anyway, they're doing away with it completely very soon.

AJ was banned because he couldn't stick to the facts, and veered far and often into personal insults, doing his best Peter Aczel impression.  It's Gene's sandbox, so what do you expect when you come in and insult the guy?

So please stop with the griping, as your respective situations with regards to that forum are your own doing.

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Wayne Highwood on
AJ was banned because he couldn't stick to the facts


Hi Wayne,

Does this thread represent your ability to assess/knowledge of audio science facts, in particular, controlled tests (DBTs et al)?
You seem perfectly qualified to be a audio forum mod then. Audioholics I assume? 

Quote from: Wayne Highwood on
and veered far and often into personal insults, doing his best Peter Aczel impression.

Ok, you got me. No idea whether this an insult or compliment. Both?

Quote from: Wayne Highwood on
It's Gene's sandbox, so what do you expect when you come in and insult the guy?

It is and not sure who insulted him (via your reading comprehension skills of course), but the subject of DBTs is not his "sandbox". Pretty sure that's what I and I assume, Krab, would be speaking of here in this thread. DBTs. Speakers. Amps. If this is way over your head as indicated in the thread I linked, well, that's ok too.
Feel free to add your thoughts on the actual subject of the DBTs Wayne.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Wayne Highwood on
Let's set the record straight.

Krab explicitly requested to have his account deleted, and so it was.


Wow.  Complete bullshit. That is utterly false.  Who told you such nonsense?

Quote
He was not banned for posting SO's responses.


Since I wasn't told what I was banned for , I was speculating.  (As I've said, all my posts are still up.) 

Quote
He's welcome back any time he wants.  Steve actually gave him positive rep points after the post he linked above in an effort to keep him around.  And the chicklet ratings are short lived anyway, they're doing away with it completely very soon.


This is the first I've heard of any of this 'welcome'.  Why wasn't I informed?


Here's kindly old Steve81:
ME:It was Gene himself who suggested to me it was a mod gone postal
Steve81:It's possible. However, if I were to "go postal" on you, it'd involve a ban, not rep points.

after that day of posting,  I got a few positive rep points, from parties unknown. Meanwhile Steve81 went looking for my past posts to 'prove'  that I don't know jack about reputation points (why he obsessed on this, I do not know..I found it funny)

and then:
ME: I'm flattered that you went looking for my priors though (and by flattered I mean: scared).
Steve: Well, I wouldn't want you to be afraid of posting here, so I'll help you out.

Which doesn't read as exactly sincere, does it?

(I posted once more later that day on the Loudspeakers thread, linking to Sean's response here.)

And then poof I was gone.

And then :
Steve: Regardless of how intelligent one might be, if you can't communicate your thoughts in a constructive manner, you don't have a place on this forum. Of course, if you want to try and provoke a moderator by sending him messages that he's "scary" or claim to be fearful because I (like any other member) can look at your posting history, well...

(I don't think I've ever communicated my thoughts in a particularly *unintelligent* manner there, but that doesn't seem to be what really triggered the banning. That 'provocation'  -- a grey chicklet with the linked explanation 'you're scary' (which identified it as being from me), not 'messages'-- were rather tongue-in-cheek responses to Steve's ominous posts -- a sort of humor Steve apparently doesn't appreciate.  After I sent him the chicklet+message, he announced it to the group.  I 'liked' that announcement.  I don't think he found that funny either)

And a bit later, this classy bit of commentary also appears:
AcuDeftechGuy: I think his goal waking up this morning was to get drunk and get banned.

that's a post that was 'liked' by.... Steve81. 

So your story is kind of amusing, Wayne.  Tell me, who was it who actually banned me, and why?  It certainly wasn't because I ever 'requested to have my account deleted'!

Quote
AJ was banned because he couldn't stick to the facts, and veered far and often into personal insults, doing his best Peter Aczel impression.  It's Gene's sandbox, so what do you expect when you come in and insult the guy?

So please stop with the griping, as your respective situations with regards to that forum are your own doing.



So, Gene and the mods there can be thin-skinned and petty, yes, I  got that after the whole 'shadowbanning'  thing.  (Credit to Gene for reversing that...and for at least claiming he was going to fix the ~20,000 negative rep points I
gotten in a flash, which he suggested might have been a mod 'gone postal'  --  though it looks like he never got around to that fix)

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #18 –
Thanks a lot Krab, you just made me slog a bunch of threads when I should have been working on projects (I hope none of my customers read this forum  )!
I didn't see a single "insult". I dare facts challenged Wayne to link one. You know when someone starts mentioning "tone" of poster, that their argument is spurious......
What I saw was challenges by Krab, to the Kings utterances in his little cocoon.
As I said, I agree with some of what Gene is contending (mono blind testing conclusions). But a lot of the other contentions about DBTs are specious, at best. He dare not leave the cocoon with those.
His "Alternative Testing Methodologies" should have been posted on April 1st:

To strongly imply that, as an equal or better method to Harmans, even mono testing, well....and it completely contradicts his "Placement Interference" paragraph in the "Loudspeaker Myths" article/video.
The "Amp Differences" poll isn't worthy of comment.
This probably won't get me invited to the Christmas party...and like bans on forums:


cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #19 –
Quote from: krabapple on
fwiw, Audioholics banned me today after I quoted Sean Olive's HA comments about their Loudspeaker DBT article. 

I'd been a member there for quite a few years but Gene Della Salla never quite got around to 'correcting' my reputation. 



What did I say - Sic Transit Gloria?  These forum moderators seem to price peace and their personal but often flawed personal agendas over the better good for all which I believe is found through sharing reliable information.

Its especially tough to see a guy who seems to have a lot on the ball like Gene fall into this pit.

The current poorly-informed audiophile ego-shielding tactic seems to complain to ignorant moderators (such as the C&W DJ from my home town that seems to be running AVS) about people "Talking down" to them.

I hate to bring in a little thing like reality, but its really hard to guard someone else's hypersensitive ego and correct their tightly held misapprehensions day in and day out. Especially true when they have the debating style of a bull moose in rut.

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #20 –
I actually took the time to watch the Hans and Franz video on speaker myths/DBTs and I'm shaking my head even more now. Some quite valid points, all mixed in with audiophile woo beliefs about "parts quality" and cabinets, etc.
Would love to see some of those beliefs put to the test in the mid/far field via controlled methods, but alas.....


Btw, Love the tragic little ported cone 'n dome granite mega $$ audiophile cookbook recipe speaker being use as example of exemplary scientific design....

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #21 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
I actually took the time to watch the Hans and Franz video on speaker myths/DBTs


AJ, could you do me a solid and give a link to the video? TIA

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #22 –
Just click the link in the first post.

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #23 –
Quote from: SIY on
AJ, could you do me a solid and give a link to the video? TIA


As Ernest noted, 1st link in 1st post. Some reasonable stuff (break in myth, mono testing, etc) mixed with not so reasonable criticism of blind tests. You should forward it to the guy who designed your speakers, I'm sure he'd get a kick out of it, especially the "parts quality" part. 
Even more amusing would be a Hans and Franz video where they pump up the crowd, by easily identifying a "poor" parts quality speaker vs the $uperior parts quality one...in a real blind test. 

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

sigh. another DBT tirade from Audioholics

Reply #24 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Even more amusing would be a Hans and Franz video where they pump up the crowd, by easily identifying a "poor" parts quality speaker vs the $uperior parts quality one...in a real blind test.


You have to wonder if any of them have ever opened up the speaker cabinets. I was using expensive (for me) £2.50/m cable....a binding post broke on a speaker so I bought a new one, had to open the back to replace it to discover the wiring KEF were using from the binding posts to the circuit board were no better/worse than a standard mains cable