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Topic: Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion (Read 14045 times) previous topic - next topic
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Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

I have recently bought Asus RP-N14 Range Extender (http://www.asus.com/Networking/RPN14/) with intent to use it as wireless audio connection between computer and amp. I have managed to get it running using Foobar2000 and Airfoil (no luck with dlna) but output seems audibly distorted in high frequency range. Am I doing something wrong or Asus actually managed to produce terrible sounding device in 2014?

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #1
I have recently bought Asus RP-N14 Range Extender (http://www.asus.com/Networking/RPN14/) with intent to use it as wireless audio connection between computer and amp. I have managed to get it running using Foobar2000 and Airfoil (no luck with dlna) but output seems audibly distorted in high frequency range. Am I doing something wrong or Asus actually managed to produce terrible sounding device in 2014?


There is a good chance the board is just fine and your troubles are the result of a "ground loop" between the sound card output and the amplifier input.  I have a low end Acer and the sound output was fine though headphones and terrible when piped to an external amplifier.  I purchased a ground loop isolator (which is basically just a 1 to 1 transformer) off the internet and voila!  Try listening to the output with headphones and if they sound O.K. then your problem is likely a ground loop.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #2
Unless the range extender decodes and re-encodes your music or somehow incorporates D/A and A/D converters and does analog sound processing, the distortion cannot possibly come from a piece of networking equipment. Digital audio does not work that way.

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #3
I will certainly check it, but it doesn't sound as ground loop. Ground loop sounds like hum (at least in my experience) and this sounds like distortion.

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #4
That is quite possibly one of the most bizarre devices I've seen! A wireless extender that you can stream to and is also a night light!?!?!

KozmoNaut, you can actually stream to the device. It has a headphone socket so I assume it's probably just a really crummy headphone amp? Maybe?

papucar, it's a headphone socket rather than a line out so that could have some effect.

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #5
Unless the range extender decodes and re-encodes your music or somehow incorporates D/A and A/D converters and does analog sound processing, the distortion cannot possibly come from a piece of networking equipment. Digital audio does not work that way.


And I don't think trans-coding is an issue as I have tried various formats played from two different devices (Windows and Android) but distortion pattern remained very similar.
Unfortunately this extender doesn't have digital out, only analog line-out (3.5 mm), so I guess the culprit must be either bad DAC implementation or bad sound processing.


Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #7
Should I suspect impedance mismatch?

No. The input impedance of your amp will be much higher than the output impedance of that unit, and that is fine. You don't want or need matched impedances for audio.

Have you tried Ed's suggestion of listening directly though headphones yet (no amplifier connected).

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #8
Should I suspect impedance mismatch?

No. The input impedance of your amp will be much higher than the output impedance of that unit, and that is fine. You don't want or need matched impedances for audio.

Have you tried Ed's suggestion of listening directly though headphones yet (no amplifier connected).


I am testing it at the moment but distortion seem even more pronounced while using headphones (Grado SR125). And there seems to be heavy low frequency roll off using headphones.

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #9
I am testing it at the moment but distortion seem even more pronounced while using headphones (Grado SR125).

Ok well that rules out the ground loop theory.

Quote
And there seems to be heavy low frequency roll off using headphones.

That means that it has an ac coupled output, with too lower capacitance value to drive phones. Disappointing, particularly as they show a "headphones icon" on that output. But it shouldn't effect the performance when driving an amplifier.

At this stage I'd try an RMAA test on it. You can play the RMAA produced waveforms through the network device and record it on a laptop or something, and then later feed those recorded waveforms back into RMAA to analyse. It's kind of the same as a loopback test but done in two separate recording and playback phases. An RMAA test should definitively point to exactly what type of distortion you are getting.

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #10
BTW. I notice that on the "specs page" for that device they show absolutely no audio performance specifications whatsoever. 
http://www.asus.com/Networking/RPN14/specifications/

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #11
That means that it has an ac coupled output, with too lower capacitance value to drive phones. Disappointing, particularly as they show a "headphones icon" on that output. But it shouldn't effect the performance when driving an amplifier.


Definitely disappointing as product manual (p.7) states: "You can insert an earphone, powered speaker, or stereo system to the 3.5mm stereo audio port."   

Quote
At this stage I'd try an RMAA test on it. You can record the RMAA produced waveforms through the network device and record it on a laptop or something, and then later feed those recorded waveforms back into RMAA to analyse. It's kind of the same as a loopback test but done in two separate recording and playback phases. An RMAA test should definitively point to exactly what type of distortion you are getting.


I will try RMAA and report back. Thanks for the help, this forum is way more helpful than Asus support! Their answer to my questions was: "RP-N14 is nor audio device. For audio connection you should use audio devices."

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #12
I will certainly check it, but it doesn't sound as ground loop. Ground loop sounds like hum (at least in my experience) and this sounds like distortion.


A ground loop just means that there is a voltage differential between the ground terminals of two devices.  Thus a D.C. potential will exist between them, which may or may not cause problems at the input of an amplifier.  The D.C. potential may vary with signals and this will introduce various forms of noise and possibly distortion.

A 1:1 transformer in the chain prevents the D.C. potential from passing through it thus removing this source of possible problems.

In my case there was a lot of noise on the signal from my sound card to my amplifier.  Actually there was a lot of noise even without a signal.

On the other hand listening with decent headphones plugged into the sound card no such effects were audible.

It was a fairly long run but testing with short runs and other amplifiers showed the same effects.  The insertion of a 1:1 transformer in the chain reduced these to the point of inaudibility.  The only explanation I know of for this is that the transformer eliminated a ground loop. 

With the transformer in the chain I think the sound from the computer is at least as good as the sound from the receiver's built in FM receiver on a local station.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #13
Just want to be perfectly clear, although your original post was pretty well paid-out - you've had this distortion problem since you first used it?

And you've gone back upstream in the chain to make sure the Asus isn't being fed distorted audio?

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #14
Just want to be perfectly clear, although your original post was pretty well paid-out - you've had this distortion problem since you first used it?

Yes, I have immediately noticed it.

Quote
And you've gone back upstream in the chain to make sure the Asus isn't being fed distorted audio?

And yes, I have checked that as well.

RMAA test will definitely confirm it but this seem to be either badly designed or defective unit. Unfortunately none of the people I know has one so I am unable to compare it other units.

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #15
Just want to be perfectly clear, although your original post was pretty well paid-out - you've had this distortion problem since you first used it?

Yes, I have immediately noticed it.

Quote
And you've gone back upstream in the chain to make sure the Asus isn't being fed distorted audio?

And yes, I have checked that as well.

RMAA test will definitely confirm it but this seem to be either badly designed or defective unit. Unfortunately none of the people I know has one so I am unable to compare it other units.

Just wanted to make 100% sure, so the techy problem-solvers of HydrogenAudio aren't sent chasing red herrings. Are there any sites with lots of customer reviews of this unit? If there is a common complaint among buyers or some hint of a bad batch of products, that might provide a pattern.

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #16
I will certainly check it, but it doesn't sound as ground loop. Ground loop sounds like hum (at least in my experience) and this sounds like distortion.


A ground loop just means that there is a voltage differential between the ground terminals of two devices.  Thus a D.C. potential will exist between them, which may or may not cause problems at the input of an amplifier.  The D.C. potential may vary with signals and this will introduce various forms of noise and possibly distortion.


Hi Ed, just to clarify how a ground loop normally arises. The wiring of ac power outlets in homes is often quite adhoc, and even outlets that are in reasonably close proximity to each other sometimes have wiring that runs very different routes from the "fuse box" (or main point of entry). As a result, when a signal ground (like a coaxial audio cable for example) connect two devices who's power wiring runs very different routes, a significant amount of ac pickup can be induced in such a large loop. So in general this pickup is ac at the same frequency as the mains power (50 or 60 Hz depending upon the country).

When the ground loop pickup is not too excessive it just introduces hum. In some case however, the group loop pickup can be large enough to overload an analog input, and then you can get all sorts of nasty anomalies.

The solution is as you say, using an audio transformer to isolate the signal. Yes it's true that the transformer does block DC, but that's not it's main purpose here. The transformer just removes the need for a direct galvanic connection between the two grounds (isolates the grounds), thus breaking the ground loop.

Another simple solution that is adequate in many cases is simply to run everything (in the system with an interconnected signal ground) from the *one* common power outlet, using a short extension cord and  "power boards" as necessary. This doesn't entirely eliminate a ground loop, but it does often make it manageable for devices that are in reasonably close proximity.

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #17
This is my first attempt at using RMAA so it's quite possible that I haven't done it correctly.



recorded wav: test3.wav

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #18
Recorded using Asus H81M-E on-boar audio (Realtek® ALC887):


Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #19
Second attempt (@RP-N14), hopefully this time I have done it correctly



recorded wav: test_rp-n14.wav

*@mods please delete post #18


Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #20
The peaks on those sin waves are compressed.  No idea if its bad analog or some kind of DSP. 

BTW, rather than using the seedy file hosting site that tries to download malware onto people's PCs, you can upload files directly to these forums.

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #21
The solution is as you say, using an audio transformer to isolate the signal. Yes it's true that the transformer does block DC, but that's not it's main purpose here. The transformer just removes the need for a direct galvanic connection between the two grounds (isolates the grounds), thus breaking the ground loop.

Another simple solution that is adequate in many cases is simply to run everything (in the system with an interconnected signal ground) from the *one* common power outlet, using a short extension cord and  "power boards" as necessary. This doesn't entirely eliminate a ground loop, but it does often make it manageable for devices that are in reasonably close proximity.


Although I haven't quoted the first part of your message it agrees with how I understand things.  Ideally one should ground all equipment at a single point before trying isolating transformers.  This is just not very feasible in my particular circumstances, so I gave a transformer a try and it worked.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #22
Apologies Saratoga. Original shady link replaced by new one @Hydrogenaudio Forum > Uploads

Second attempt (@RP-N14), hopefully this time I have done it correctly



recorded wavs: RP-N14 & MBO

*@mods please delete posts #18 and #20

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #23
You can upload the images too.


Full image click HERE.

Asus RP-N14 audio out distortion

Reply #24
OK, now that we can see those results it's very obvious that something is indeed wrong with that device. Assuming that the test was carried out correctly* those results are absolutely terrible!

THD: 2.4%
IMD: 7.7%


Those figures should be more like 0.1% or less for any device that's even half decent.

*Note. It's been a while since I've used RMMA and it was a slightly older version. From memory however, the program should make some calibration files. So make sure you record and play the calibration files so you know that the signal you're recording from the RP-N14 is at suitable levels.