questions about Audigy 2

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questions about Audigy 2

2003-04-06 20:30:24

Okay, I'll probably get a new soundcard next week, and the SB audigy 2 is what I can pay for a soundcard (120 euros). I've read a few reviews and read some posts here. The reviews say it's great, but most of you are complaining about the 44 -> 48 Khz resampling problem.

My question is : does that really affect sound quality ? I mean I have a fortissimo II which works in 44 Khz without resampling (I guess), does that mean the sound will not be better on the Audigy 2 if I use it to play audio CDs and MP3s ?
Also, why does it resample to 48 Khz ? weren't the card supposed to be 96 Khz (or even 192 I think), then why not resample to 96 Khz ? If I use foobar to resample, which seems to be better than letting the card resample itself, should I set it to 48 or 96 ?
And is the whole 192Khz 24bit thing useful for anything else than DVD-A ?

And finally, taking this and the good Signal/Noise Ratio into account, should I hear a difference between my Hercules Fortissimo II and the SB audigy 2 ? (I'm not changing to get a better sound, but because my fortissimo doesn't work properly with my motherboard).

thanx

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #1 – 2003-04-07 09:24:16

If you are not seriously interested in gaming, I would avoid it. I'd better get a M-Audio Revolution, which is just around $100. Their drivers are still somewhat immature, but Audigy 2 ones are even more, and lead to some sound quality issues. Basically, too high IMD (intermodulation distortion), according to what I've read.

I'd say the only advantage of Audigy 2 would be better sound effects in games, and the DVD-A capabilities.

About the 44.1 to 48 KHz resampling issue, well, it does not have such a great impact on audible quality. Even on cards that have not very good resampling algorithms, such as the Live!, the resampling effect is quite subtle on most things. On other cards, such as the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz or your Hercules Fortissimo II card, the resampling is of pretty good quality, and it believe not an issue at all on audible quality.

About the 24/192 thing, I think it's only useful for the DVD-A thing. I believe 44.1/16 is more than enough for just listening to music under usual conditions, given that the card is good quality. I'd say your actual card is quite good (I don't know it very well, but IIRC it's similar to the Santa Cruz), and unless you hear some problems in it such as audible background noise, I think it would be quite difficult to be told apart from a better card in a blind test.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #2 – 2003-04-07 09:42:43

Thanx for the reply. I do play quite a lot, so EAX HD and such would not be totally useless, but I can't say that's my priority for a sound card. All I want is a good quality sound for a relatively low price, and preferably not a Fortissimo since my motherboard doesn't seem to like it :'-( (I did some testing with a PCI 128 and it works perfectly... but the sound quality is clearly not as good).

The M-Audio Revolution seems pretty good, and a little cheaper, but I'm affraid I can't find one in france, so actually my choice is beween Audigy 2, Audigy player, Fortissimo III (which might not work properly), Terratec soudcards (which are either of lower quality, or more expensive. nothing around 100-120 €) and Phillips Acoustic Edge.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #3 – 2003-04-07 11:00:27

My advice would be to save your money for something else. A Fort2 to an Audigy2 isn't much of an upgrade.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #4 – 2003-04-07 11:11:24

Can't you order it from USA? I'm from Spain, I ordered my M-Audio Audiophile from http://www.cdbm.com/shop/start.cgi . It took less than a week to arrive, and they charged around 20 euro. I thought they also were selling the Revo, but unfortunately they don't. Maybe at another e-shop you can find one.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #5 – 2003-04-07 11:38:43

ok thanx KikeG and Tangent, I'll see what I can find, I gotta go buy some stuff next week anyway, so I'll see what I can find, if there are M-Audio I'll definitely get one, if not I'll see how much it costs to import one, but I don't have any credit card so that won't make things easy...) .

And What about the Terratec Aureon 5.1 Sky ? I should be able to get one around 120 euros. I thought Creative was more reliable (I mean I heard the name Terratec for the first time two days ago because I began to search for a new soundcard). So if it's better than Audigy, then I'll get this. Any advice appreciated :-)

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #6 – 2003-04-07 12:35:06

Terratec Aureon Sky/Space are based on the same chip as M-Audio Revolution.

For listening to music, it is definitely better than Audigy2.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #7 – 2003-04-07 12:42:51

Okay, cool, then I'll go for a Terratec. Thanx everyone !

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #8 – 2003-04-07 14:23:28

I hold different opinion here, my suggestion to u is go for Audigy 2.

Some people claimed the IMD is bad for Audigy 2 due to the internal resampling inside Audigy 2 chip, but they have superior low noise floor as compare with other competitors, plus they truely playback DVD-Audio disc, where others claimed for support only.

Sound quality wise, is more of user's perference.

Some people prefer TBSC, but in actual these soundcard are heavily colored. All in all, it's up to your personal preference.

Gaming wise, Audigy 2 is your choice.

p/s:- I bet I am getting flame with this post....

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #9 – 2003-04-07 14:39:32

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Some people claimed the IMD is bad for Audigy 2 due to the internal resampling inside Audigy 2 chip, but they have superior low noise floor as compare with other competitors, plus they truely playback DVD-Audio disc, where others claimed for support only.

Well, in practice a noise floor of -80 or -90 dB and below is enough for most listening situations, due to ambient noise masking. And Audigy 2 IMD is pretty poor.

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Sound quality wise, is more of user's perference.

Agreed.

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Some people prefer TBSC, but in actual these soundcard are heavily colored.

Here, I disagree. Try the samples at http://64.41.69.21/product/santa_cruz/index.htm and see how well can you ABX the ones played just once.

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Gaming wise, Audigy 2 is your choice.

Some people prefer the Audigy 1 audio performance, despite being limited to 48 KHz.

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p/s:- I bet I am getting flame with this post....

Not flame, just some disagrement.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #10 – 2003-04-07 16:13:21

Master, are you trying to confuse me ?

So, I checked a few french forums, and everyone either argue about which one is the best, or tell that both are very good cards. There's one thing I like about the Audigy too, it's that you have two differents outputs for front speakers and headphones, whereas on the Terratec (don't know about the M-Audio) you have to unplug it... and as I use both headphones and speakers, I like to be able to switch easily.
The cons for Audigy would be the arguably lower sound quality and the drivers.

I guess both are rather good cards, so I'll just compare prices, and get the less expensive

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Some people prefer the Audigy 1 audio performance, despite being limited to 48 KHz.

That's the first time I hear that, every review or comment I read about Audigy 2 told it sounded much better than Audigy 1. But maybe it's just a placebo effect ("hmmm, it says 192 Khz on the box so it should sound better" )

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #11 – 2003-04-07 17:02:44

Both cards (M-Audio Revo and Creative Audigy 2) are good. It is not that you are buing Live! again. My feeling is that in 99.99999% of cases you will not be able to distinguish audio quality differences in equally set Audigy 2 or Revolution. May be if you sit down and will ABX them until you ears fell out of your body, you will find some minute differences. But I guess these differences will be not that audible on any not TOP HI-FI equipment or headphones.
Note, I have never heard M-Audio Revolution, but based on reviews people "heard" some differences, however results are not that one card is better and other is worse. If you will own this card, I guess you will never even figure out that something is wrong with one or the other

44->48 problem in Audigy2 is even more pronaunced than on Live (my own experiments) HOWEVER, these problems I can hear only on synthetic tests like different computer generated sine waves. I was unable to hear any such differences on real music from rock to more computer oriented music of Jean Michel Jarre. However I use Foobar/Winamp resampling to 24/48 "just because".. I don't hear any differences, but want to be on a safe side (just like I never open .exe attachments in my mail, not because they contain any viruses (hardly ever that was the fact) but because I consider it impolite to send .exe file via mail not archived in some way and with some README file).

Note: I'm the owner of Audigy 2 Platinum, so my opinion can be biased.

P.S. From the screenshots of drivers for M-Audio Revolution, all the controls look more professional not like those childish things Creative produces (but that's also because I have never seen a single piece of software created in Asia which looks professional and not like some game console for 5 year old girl [plz no offense - just differences of cultures]).

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #12 – 2003-04-07 23:32:32

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Master, are you trying to confuse me ?

So, I checked a few french forums, and everyone either argue about which one is the best, or tell that both are very good cards. There's one thing I like about the Audigy too, it's that you have two differents outputs for front speakers and headphones, whereas on the Terratec (don't know about the M-Audio) you have to unplug it... and as I use both headphones and speakers, I like to be able to switch easily.
The cons for Audigy would be the arguably lower sound quality and the drivers.

I am not trying to confuse u, but just a little opinion of mine.

Personally, I believe the music preference is subjective. So try listen yourself and judge with your own ears, pick your prefer cards.

I notice one thing from my friend system using Audigy 2, when he boot up the computer with speaker volume level open, the pop sound of start up is amazing low compare to my Audigy 1.

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Well, in practice a noise floor of -80 or -90 dB and below is enough for most listening situations, due to ambient noise masking. And Audigy 2 IMD is pretty poor.

U are right, but the lower noise floor is important if u do your own recording.

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Here, I disagree. Try the samples at http://64.41.69.21/product/santa_cruz/index.htm and see how well can you ABX the ones played just once.

Hmm... does "how well can u ABX...." means the sound are not colored?

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #13 – 2003-04-08 13:57:16

Well, there are two things I would consider buying Audigy(2) for:
1. MIDI and SoundFont support
2. EAX3 support
If these two aren't the priorities, there are way better cards for the same or lower price (like Revo).

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #14 – 2003-04-08 14:43:11

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Hmm... does "how well can u ABX...." means the sound are not colored?

I mean that if you try to ABX them you'll find it's not easy at all, and maybe impossible. I haven't tried though this particular test, but I've tried similar ones comparing TBSC with a CD player, also I know that the output is not colored looking at frequency response tests of this card.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #15 – 2003-04-08 15:05:24

You can find the M-Audio revolution in the french on-line store Grosbill :
http://www.grosbill.com/cat.cgi?id=7039&p2...=promo&p3=audio

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #16 – 2003-04-08 15:05:27

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That's the first time I hear that, every review or comment I read about Audigy 2 told it sounded much better than Audigy 1. But maybe it's just a placebo effect ("hmmm, it says 192 Khz on the box so it should sound better" )

That's what I heard, but maybe it's not totally accurate. Doing a detailed analysis, it seems that both Audigy and Audigy 2 are not very good in this respect.

Audigy 2 with current drivers has IMD problems, and Audigy 1 does too. The first release drivers of Audigy 2 were terrible.

Minimum audible IMD has been clasically considered to be 0.1% ( http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/IM/index.htm ). In a good card IMD is below 0.01%.

Now, Audigy2 with first release drivers ( http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/creativeaudigy2 ) has an IMD of 15% (!!!!).

With newer drivers, the IMD drops a lot, to around 0.2% ( http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/audigy2/2444.htm ) . The frequency respose is worsened too, although maybe not so much as to cause audible problems

IMD of Santa Cruz: 0.007 % ( http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/santa_c..._cruz/index.htm )
IMD of M-Audio Revolution: around 0.007 % ( http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/revolution/2444.htm , http://terratec.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Revo1644.htm )
IMD of M-Audio Audiophile: 0.004% ( http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/measurements/M...SIO%2024bit.htm )

Edit: still, note that some of these measurements have been made in loopback mode, so in them performance of line-in has an effect on the measurement.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #17 – 2003-04-09 00:20:43

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I mean that if you try to ABX them you'll find it's not easy at all, and maybe impossible. I haven't tried though this particular test, but I've tried similar ones comparing TBSC with a CD player, also I know that the output is not colored looking at frequency response tests of this card.

I don't think I agree with u on this, a colored sound is more than Frequency Response, THD play a part too and I don't think it was ABX related.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #18 – 2003-04-09 01:20:13

The IMD is relatively high only in 44.1 kHz mode (never was as high as the original Digit-Life view claimed - the reviewer didn't adjust the levels properly according to himself).

If you use FooBar to resample to 96 kHz all objective sound quality parameters for the A2 are top notch.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #19 – 2003-04-09 08:45:42

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I don't think I agree with u on this, a colored sound is more than Frequency Response, THD play a part too...

"Color" usually refers to frequency response, but it's true that there can be other factors influencing this "color". Still, THD of Santa Cruz is just around 0.002%. Although just a THD figure gives doesn't give much information on the kind of distortions produced, such a low values does say a lot.

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and I don't think it was ABX related.

What do you mean? If you hear an obvious difference, it should be obvious to ABX. It's as simple as that.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #20 – 2003-04-09 08:51:40

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If you use FooBar to resample to 96 kHz all objective sound quality parameters for the A2 are top notch.

But this is quite true too for the Live! rear outputs, resampling to 48 KHz ( http://audio.rightmark.org/test/creative-l...ve5.1-1648.html ) Surprisingly, the Audigy 1 is a little bit worse in this case ( http://audio.rightmark.org/test/audigy/cre...-rear-1648.html ).

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(never was as high as the original Digit-Life view claimed - the reviewer didn't adjust the levels properly according to himself).

Well, Arny Krueger (author of pcavtech.com and pcabx.com ) talks of an IMD of around 12% with original drivers. I guess he adjusted levels properly.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #21 – 2003-04-09 20:43:08

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Well, Arny Krueger (author of pcavtech.com and pcabx.com ) talks of an IMD of around 12% with original drivers. I guess he adjusted levels properly.

I'm not debating. I'm telling.

1) I have run the tests myself with the original drivers. If you set the main volume over ~80% you get fucked up IMD. Set it to ~75% and you get an IMD of ~0.3%. This is true for all A2 drivers.

2) The Digit-Life dude acknowledged on their boards that he had not adjusted the levels properly. They have recently rearranged their forums so the post is gone, but if you ask I'm sure he will explain again.

3) If Kruger got an IMD of 12% he has obviously not adjusted the levels properly. Most likely he measured with the main volume maxed out.

End of discussion.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #22 – 2003-04-09 21:26:02

Heres my findings on the 48KHz resample.

I have just written a 48KHz resampling DSP based on SSRC for my audio player dBpowerAMP so I was testing it out on a sound blaster live. Analogue out to a class AA amplifier - playing Monkeys Audio tracks whilst playing the original CD on the same Hi-Fi. It was quite difficult to hear the problem from the resampling, it showed on some tracks more than others (noteably tracks with snare drum sounds), the resampling from the sound blaster caused a 'dullness' being added to those sounds...I could not hear a difference between the audio CD and SSRC resampled audio.

Note it was not a blind test as I was more concerned with testing code.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #23 – 2003-04-10 11:07:20

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1) I have run the tests myself with the original drivers. If you set the main volume over ~80% you get fucked up IMD. Set it to ~75% and you get an IMD of ~0.3%. This is true for all A2 drivers.

Ok, I can't say for sure since I've not tested it myself. However, if you set main volume at 75%, what dynamic range and THD+N values you get? I say this because lowering the volume you will get better IMD, but worse SNR, that is normal.

questions about Audigy 2

Reply #24 – 2003-04-10 16:35:08

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"Color" usually refers to frequency response, but it's true that there can be other factors influencing this "color". Still, THD of Santa Cruz is just around 0.002%. Although just a THD figure gives doesn't give much information on the kind of distortions produced, such a low values does say a lot.

What do you mean? If you hear an obvious difference, it should be obvious to ABX. It's as simple as that.

THD is one of the factors of color sound... well, are we going to continue on this???

Let his ears judge for himself.

p/s:- Some people tends to prefer colored sound (such as warm, bla bla bla...), and I do not think TBSC is a bad sound card, not to metioned I have not had a chance to listen to it yet.

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