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Topic: Using maximum volume or not (Read 6411 times) previous topic - next topic
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Using maximum volume or not

Hi!

That´s a strange question maybe ...

In the audio settings, i can set general volume and volume for wave.
I used to set both to maximum and then change volume in WinAmp - depending on what i want: If directly hearing from the computer, or just also at full volume when connected to an external receiver.

Is that the recommended way?

I was thinking that it may be stress for the soundcard or possibly other parts, when i use full volume everywhere, but don´t know   
3.90.3 --alt-preset extreme -V0 --lowpass 20.5 -> yeah!
"extremist of extreme", johnV @ Sep 13 2002 - 02:01 PM  ;-)

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #1 –
well, changing volume with winamp change the 'wave' volume of your sound card... also
i prefere to connect output to my great HIFI and change volume with it , also i let to 50% the volume of my computer output

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #2 –
Changing volume in digital domain is lossy as it causes quantization noise/distortion and/or dither noise and therefore it decreases quality (at least theoretically). I don't see a reason why this would not happen when you change "wave" volume of your soundcard (at least if you have a 16bit soundcard). So if you're soundcard output is not connected directly to headphones it's better to adjust volume with an analog amp.

But there are some problems:

"100% volume" doesn't always mean "no volume change". There are cases where different drivers cause different volume at same windows volume control settings, e.g. to make playback on headphones directly connected to the soundcard louder. So it could be hard (or maybe impossible) to find the volume setting where no digital amplification happens.

On loud signals (e.g. "modernly mastered" clipping CD recordings) "not-so-decent" soundcards could cause distortion at full volume.

Please note that the only thing I exerienced/tested myself is the different volume/different drivers issue with AC'97 onboard sound. The rest are conclusions/assumptions mainly based on what I've read here on HA before. So please correct my if you find mistakes.
Let's suppose that rain washes out a picnic. Who is feeling negative? The rain? Or YOU? What's causing the negative feeling? The rain or your reaction? - Anthony De Mello

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #3 –
Quote
well, changing volume with winamp change the 'wave' volume of your sound card... also

Hmm,
this seems not to be true for my computer   

I can change the overall volume at those levers:

General volume,
Wave volume,
WinAmp volume,
Amplifier volume

All of that changes the total volume and (only talking aobut the settings in the computer), the full volume i can only reach with all three volumes completely up!

I mean, that changes in WinAmp will not only not be shown in the Wave- or General-Volume, but also, that when i decrease Wave volume and turn up WinAmp volume fully, i still get more total volume when i increase Wave volume ...

3.90.3 --alt-preset extreme -V0 --lowpass 20.5 -> yeah!
"extremist of extreme", johnV @ Sep 13 2002 - 02:01 PM  ;-)

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #4 –
Quote
Changing volume in digital domain is lossy as it causes quantization noise/distortion and/or dither noise and therefore it decreases quality (at least theoretically). I don't see a reason why this would not happen when you change "wave" volume of your soundcard (at least if you have a 16bit soundcard). So if you're soundcard output is not connected directly to headphones it's better to adjust volume with an analog amp.

But there are some problems:
<snip>

Thanx, Tigre!

I have an onboard Creative PCI128 which actually is a Creative CT5880 + Sigmatel 9708T CODEC (    ) which supports 5.1 sound and EAX - it seems to be not sooo bad for an onboard chip.

I will try the following:

General volume and Wave volume at first to "full", and then (with that Windows volume tool), reducing each of them by "one tick", which seems to be 1/5 of full volume. So, i run the soundcard at 80 % for both Wave and General volume which is 64 % of full, complete volume for Wave output ...

The rest, i will change with my amplifier!

Thanx again ...   
3.90.3 --alt-preset extreme -V0 --lowpass 20.5 -> yeah!
"extremist of extreme", johnV @ Sep 13 2002 - 02:01 PM  ;-)

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #5 –
hi guys....

maybe I can add a little bit: my soundcard has an volumeslider on the back, after reading the manual I did set it on 80% of the max volume. As with more audio-equipment with small outputs (like portables) thats the best setting: with a higher setting (e.g. 100%) clipping might occur, since the amplifier amplifies the volume. with a lower setting, the amplifier softens the volume, which affects the noise-sound ratio.

but I dunno about cards without slider on the back, though I guess the same applies - so the best quallity whould be gained when the Master out whould be on some 80/90% of the maximum. maybe the other sliders on 80/90% too???

you can simply test it, by listening: adjust the sliders when playing music, reach a certain volume, then stop the music and listen to the noise. try with different settings (e.g. all digital's on max, amplifier low, and visa versa).

later

J
[span style=\'font-family:Arial\'][span style=\'color:red\']Life Sucks Deeply[/span][/span]

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #6 –
Usually, global volume is analog, and wave, winamp, etc, volumes are digital.

Try setting wave and winamp volumes at max., and control volume just with global volume. This way I get the less noises on my mediocre motherboard soundcard at work.

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #7 –
Unless you have the means to measure if distortion or S/N is affected by your settings, you should
probably set them so the output level is even with the others on your stereo.

When I'm on WIndows (not that much) and phones it is kind of handy using the mouse wheel
as a volume control, which it does with Winamp and DBpoweramp.  I know that you have issues
with the phones on direct connect.

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #8 –
I changed my setting to the recommendations: Wave to full, WinAmp to full, Volume to 80%
I also changed every other volume (modem, CD, AUX, whatever) to 80% - just to be sure   

This way, i cannot run into problems ...

Regarding the mousewheel - i do not change volume so regular     

And about my headphone problems, i wanted to be able to make that frequency test without an additional analog cable and an amplifier. But my soundcard does not allow headphones, so i will use amplifier volume anyway ...   

Bye,
3.90.3 --alt-preset extreme -V0 --lowpass 20.5 -> yeah!
"extremist of extreme", johnV @ Sep 13 2002 - 02:01 PM  ;-)

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #9 –
It should be mentioned that DA converters introduce more distortion if they are used to the maximum of their capabilities (ie give a 16bit DA a full scale 16bit Wave). The output of the DAC will have less distortion if you don't force it to use it's max output volume. This means that you should reduce the volume in the digital domain. I don't know which sliders work in the digital or the analog domain, this will probably also vary from one soundcard to the next.

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #10 –
hmm, analog slider? i would think that the global slider is exactly the same (before preamp), and most problems will happen in the output 'preamp' if it is overdriven...
PANIC: CPU 1: Cache Error (unrecoverable - dcache data) Eframe = 0x90000000208cf3b8
NOTICE - cpu 0 didn't dump TLB, may be hung

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #11 –
I think that kX drivers maximum output is already -6 dB
(at least on my card) to workaround Live clipping problem.
(Because standard Creative drivers and ALSA linux drivers can go much higher.)
Am I correct?
I've changed only because of myself.
Remember, when you quote me, you're quoting AstralStorm.
(read: this account is dead)

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #12 –
Quote
hmm, analog slider? i would think that the global slider is exactly the same (before preamp), and most problems will happen in the output 'preamp' if it is overdriven...


Together with what [span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%']tigre[/span] and [span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%']Gecko[/span] already wrote about digital volumes, it seems that General Volume is the analog preamplifier and Wave Volume is the Digital Volume.

So, better let Wave at 80% and Volume at 100% ...
But as long as nobody knows, i should go back to my former 80% - 80% solution with an effective 64% overall volume   
3.90.3 --alt-preset extreme -V0 --lowpass 20.5 -> yeah!
"extremist of extreme", johnV @ Sep 13 2002 - 02:01 PM  ;-)

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #13 –
Quote
I also changed every other volume (modem, CD, AUX, whatever) to 80% - just to be sure    :rolleyes:

To reduce noises at the output, mute (or set at 0%) everything but the wave and global volumes.

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #14 –
Quote
To reduce noises at the output, mute (or set at 0%) everything but the wave and global volumes.

Did it!   

(Wondering why i cannot find any information about digital or analog in Windows or Creative  documentation    )
3.90.3 --alt-preset extreme -V0 --lowpass 20.5 -> yeah!
"extremist of extreme", johnV @ Sep 13 2002 - 02:01 PM  ;-)

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #15 –
Lowering digital (Wave) volume WILL decrease quality due to introduction of rounding error.
So, you should set Wave to 100% and Main to 80%.
Are you using SB Live? Creative drivers (and ALSA) enable builtin +6dB amp...
It isn't of great quality... but it doesn't matter if you use digital output.
Used only if you drive the volume too high, don't know what is the exact level.
Emu10k1 project drivers (OSS) for Linux have an option to turn this amp on/off.
kX drivers don't seem to use it.
I've changed only because of myself.
Remember, when you quote me, you're quoting AstralStorm.
(read: this account is dead)

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #16 –
Quote
Lowering digital (Wave) volume WILL decrease quality due to introduction of rounding error.
So, you should set Wave to 100% and Main to 80%.
Are you using SB Live? Creative drivers (and ALSA) enable builtin +6dB amp...
It isn't of great quality... but it doesn't matter if you use digital output.
<snip>

Now that´s contrary to what we heard before ...

Wave is in the Digital Domain, it seems (most people agree).
But one fractions says, put it *not* to full, the other says, put it to full.
One side says that full volume in the digital domain (Wave) is dangerous, the other fractions says, exactly that is not dangerous  ...

         
3.90.3 --alt-preset extreme -V0 --lowpass 20.5 -> yeah!
"extremist of extreme", johnV @ Sep 13 2002 - 02:01 PM  ;-)

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #17 –
Hmm, what about setting the main volume to 75%? Why 80% anyway? What is like, the rightest level, and how the heck can we know?

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #18 –
Well, I have the Philips Acoustic Edge and have found out that a full-scale tone will actually clip if I set the wave volume past about 2/3 up.

So I crank that up until I hear distortion, back off some, set the Master to max, then adjust the rest with the volume knob on the stereo my computer's connected to 

Really, it depends on your sound card where 100% actually is, I guess.

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #19 –
I have all volumes at max (except amp vol obviously), on my sblive 5.1 connected by spdif to a yamaha amp.  sounds fine here.

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #20 –
I wonder what should i use with the Realtek AC97 cheapo onboard that comes with my MSI mobo... (Yeah, yeah, 5.1 blah thingie, i only use stereo).

Also, how can you set the volume with such precision, when the stupid windows mixer only shows like seven marks, but it moves a lot much slower if you do it with keys or mouse wheel. Is there any decent mixer replacement using numbers, % or something more useful than a blind slider?
She is waiting in the air

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #21 –
If soundcard drivers are good, music with Wave volume set to max shouldn't clip at all.
If it clips... oh well. Set it lower or look out for better drivers.
(Like it does with ALSA... but that's another story, see above,
to avoid it and get max volume set Wave and Main volume to 88(%) in mixer
and you'll get exactly same volume as kX drivers)

Using (bad) soundcard amplifiers with max volume adds distortion.
That's why you shouldn't use max volume
(excluding kX, which are already quieter than Creative drivers)
I've changed only because of myself.
Remember, when you quote me, you're quoting AstralStorm.
(read: this account is dead)

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #22 –
A volume like 85-90 for both master and wave volume it's ok, if you go higher you'll get too much distorsions.
[ Commodore 64 Forever...! ]

Using maximum volume or not

Reply #23 –
Quote
Hmm, what about setting the main volume to 75%? Why 80% anyway? What is like, the rightest level, and how the heck can we know?

If you ever use RightMark Audio Analyzer on your soundcard you can find out. 

I set up my Audigy (using .324 Creative drivers) for a loopback test.  I found out that if I set either Main volume or Line-in volume far above 80%,  the test would not complete.  Indeed, when I click 'Adjust I/O levels', I could see evidence of dynamic range compression.  So, when I listen to music, I know that I should keep Main Volume around 80% (lower is okay, too).  Wave volume should be kept at 100% for reasons already stated by others on this thread.

Of course, YMMV with different drivers, and it WILL vary with different hardware.  For example, when I RMAA tested my onboard nForce audio (Soundstorm APU via ASUS riser card), I was forced to use completely different settings for Main, Line-in, and Wave volume.

If everything works out, dynamic range compression should not be a problem.  This doesn't prevent distortions 100% though (one could be using Replaygain which can introduce a preamp and cause distortions that way,  for instance).