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Topic: Does Hi End equipment really worht? (Read 18461 times) previous topic - next topic
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Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Hi Guys!


I'm a complete newb here. I'm getting in this world, and started to read a lot about all these.

I have a set up decent headphones, and was trying to improve my rig, but get some doubts:


- when i first was trying to find some pieces, I was strongly advised to get the Apogee Mini DAC. However, after some reading I got a lot of doubts

- A lot of people talk about blind tests, and double blind tests, and they all say (like in matrixhifi.com) that decent cheap equipments have SQ equivalent to high end ones, and it does not pay the extra $$ at all.



Is this true in your opinion?


(i'm sorry if I'm getting to a recurring theme or smt like that, but I tried to search this before and couldnt get straight answers...)



Thanks!

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #1 –
In my opinion you should spend as much as you can afford on speakers and/or headphones, but on everything else you quickly get into diminishing returns, i.e. spending a lot more may only give a slight improvement. Good analog and digital electronics doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg.

And please don't double post.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: pdq on
And please don't double post.

What he said. 

If you don't feel comfortable investing in high end equipment, don't. There's a lot of people that are fine with mid-range (what I  would consider ~$90 - $150) gear. I would take a trip down to a brick and motor audio store (the closest thing I know of is J&R where I live) and test out some higher end headphones or speaker setups with your music of choice. If you can't hear the difference, then you know your cut off point (unless you have any insecurities - then by all means spend as much as you want!).

Once you get into the magical audiophile realm, the only thing you're gaining are minor increases in quality that most people wouldn't even notice or care about.

What should really matter: Music -> Equipment -> Wallet 

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #3 –
What's also noteworthy... many people are happy with old equipment. Buy once, be happy until it breaks.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=53404

Personally speaking, as it's mainly music that is coming out of my speakers as of yet I'm not in need of any surround equipment. I totally missed that development around the year 2000 and onwards. I use the on-board stereo sound of my PC, a 5 year old (at least 20 or older year-old stereo technology) amplifier and some 30 year old retail AKAI speakers, fixed with custom mid-low drivers 10 years ago due to foam detoriation of the original ones... and you know what? I can't complain! The stuff just works, and it's the one electronic setup I was the least worried about all the time.

My advice, buy something that has decent specs, is not cheapest, and that is not too fancy looking or has too many knobs, you'll appreciate it that you forget about that the amp and speakers even exist over the years. 

EDIT: about blind testing with audio equipment in hope of proofing something - that's for people who listen to Pink Floyd records over and over again...  you can waste a lot of time for something that is quite obvious. What I mean is, that as soon as you change the music you listen to, what difference does it makes if your equipement is $1000 or $10.000 worth? Most music sounds really bad but some is quite good. The music you listen to (hopefully) changes every 38-78 minutes all the time, so you won't even notice the placebo effects that the $9000 bucks are causing to your conscience because the difference in quality of the music is much greater than any theoretical or placebo quality difference of your equipment.

Quote from: rricmat on
- A lot of people talk about blind tests, and double blind tests, and they all say (like in matrixhifi.com) that decent cheap equipments have SQ equivalent to high end ones, and it does not pay the extra $$ at all.

Those people have found the holy grail.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: rricmat on
Is this true in your opinion?


Nope.  I think systems need to be balanced.  Buy the best gear you can afford (price isn't ALWAYS an indicator for quality.)

Maybe it is a magnepan thing, but I had to spend about $7k to get electronics that got he most out of my $500 speakers.  Sure, you could run them on less and I did, but getting a good front end and amp really brought out their virtues.

Here is an example of someone who made an upgrade.  The double blind crowd would advise that such a pairing was crazy, but this poster had a much different result:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/105731.html

That said, you should audition as much gear in your room as you can.  Not everyone can hear the same, and you may be able to hear differences that warrant the expenditures.  maybe not, but you won't know until you hear for yourself.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #5 –
Pdq is right; speakers have always been the weakest link in the chain.  (The second weakest link, the pick-up cartridge, has ceased to be a problem for most of us.)  All the electronics have to do is provide linear amplification without introducing audible noise.  As this is not particularly difficult it follows that decent quality needn't cost you an arm or a leg.  (I can't recommend any particular makes or models because I've never tried anything 'off the shelf'.  I built all my own stuff twenty years ago.)

Speakers and, to a lesser extent, phones remain a problem.  They are of necessity both analogue and mechanical.  It's not particularly easy to make a speaker whose cone accurately follows the waveform being fed into its coil.  On top of that there's the coupling between the cone and the air itself to consider and the question of how to deal with the sound from the back of the thing.  Take a look at an orchestra.  The double bass is big for a reason - as are the bassoon, the tuba and the bass drum.  It's hard to generate low frequencies from small sources.  Back in the fifties a woofer just had to be 12" (some would say 18") if it was going to be any good and speaker cabinets were massive feats of engineering.  By the eighties when I built my own speakers you could get good bass from an 8" cone as long as you put it in a really solid box.  I expect things have got even better since then but the laws of physics remain the same.

There are a lot of people out there who are easily fobbed off with poor speakers - and easily fooled by the phenomenon of pseudo bass.  Consequently, there are a lot of very poor quality speakers on the market.  Good ones will not come cheap but, unless you're prepared to build your own, it'll be money well spent.

PS: If somebody asks my opinion of a speaker I put my chest up to it rather than my ear.  At normal listening volume the bass drum should be felt in the rib cage.  Anything that fails this test isn't worth considering.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #6 –
You should invest more in the analog part of your equipment. Because digital is always the same.

...And please be aware that there is lots of stupidity/scam in the hi fi world. So ABX things whenever you can to make really informed decisions.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #7 –
eBay is a good place to buy and try equipment. Many years ago I bought a Denon AVR-1801 HT receiver  and was not satisfied with the sound for music. I then tried many used integrated amps paired with the Denon until I found what I liked. This gave me the opportunity to try the equpment in my own listening environment. I would sell the amps I didn't like and many times made my money back. But as many here have already said, don't scrimp on the speakers.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: pdq on
And please don't double post.



sorry about that!

I didnt know what would be the best place to post this thread...

Quote from: Fandango on
What's also noteworthy... many people are happy with old equipment. Buy once, be happy until it breaks.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=53404

Personally speaking, as it's mainly music that is coming out of my speakers as of yet I'm not in need of any surround equipment. I totally missed that development around the year 2000 and onwards. I use the on-board stereo sound of my PC, a 5 year old (at least 20 or older year-old stereo technology) amplifier and some 30 year old retail AKAI speakers, fixed with custom mid-low drivers 10 years ago due to foam detoriation of the original ones... and you know what? I can't complain! The stuff just works, and it's the one electronic setup I was the least worried about all the time.

My advice, buy something that has decent specs, is not cheapest, and that is not too fancy looking or has too many knobs, you'll appreciate it that you forget about that the amp and speakers even exist over the years. 

EDIT: about blind testing with audio equipment in hope of proofing something - that's for people who listen to Pink Floyd records over and over again...  you can waste a lot of time for something that is quite obvious. What I mean is, that as soon as you change the music you listen to, what difference does it makes if your equipement is $1000 or $10.000 worth? Most music sounds really bad but some is quite good. The music you listen to (hopefully) changes every 38-78 minutes all the time, so you won't even notice the placebo effects that the $9000 bucks are causing to your conscience because the difference in quality of the music is much greater than any theoretical or placebo quality difference of your equipment.

Quote from: rricmat on

- A lot of people talk about blind tests, and double blind tests, and they all say (like in matrixhifi.com) that decent cheap equipments have SQ equivalent to high end ones, and it does not pay the extra $$ at all.

Those people have found the holy grail.



thanks for the answer!

well, the thing is, I used to ear my headphones through my onboard music soundcard, but I started to upgrade my phones, as I considered them to be the weakness (i had PX100 at that time).

I bought then Alessandro Music Series One.

After those I bought Audio Technica ES7, Grado SR325, Beyerdynamic DT880 and AKG K701.

Then, I tried to plug my laptop onboard soundcard to my receiver (via TOS LINK) - and I have to say I liked what I heard! no more hiss, clear sound..

now, my receiver is a Sony QS series my dad has at home. So, I started to think if I could improve that sound with some better gear, and started to read about that.


Someone told be to get Apogee Mini DAC to process my laptop music -> decent amp -> (HPhones)



but then I also read it all was bulshit, and as I said, that I wouldnt be able to listen any changes, say from my Sony QS towards some xK$ stuff...


my point is that I really dont have where to ABX equipment, because where I live there are no such stores with abundance... so I thought you could give me a hand


but I understand that at this level it becomes strongly personal, right?

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #9 –
It's not always as featureful, but I've found that pro audio equipment has superb high sound quality for a much lower price.  I wouldn't trade my Mackie HR824's (~US$1600/pair) for even the most elite of audiophile speakers.  Just have to find something with XLR outputs to drive them

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: benski on
It's not always as featureful, but I've found that pro audio equipment has superb high sound quality for a much lower price.  I wouldn't trade my Mackie HR824's (~US$1600/pair) for even the most elite of audiophile speakers.  Just have to find something with XLR outputs to drive them


I feel you on this also. I have a lot of Pro/Studio equipment, and been satisfied for years.
Only make sense to use what the Pros use...IMHO. 
I see "Deaf" people! d(-_-)b

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Blankwire on
If you don't feel comfortable investing in high end equipment, don't. There's a lot of people that are fine with mid-range (what I  would consider ~$90 - $150) gear. I would take a trip down to a brick and motor audio store (the closest thing I know of is J&R where I live) and test out some higher end headphones or speaker setups with your music of choice.
Just keep in mind with speakers that a LOT   depends on your listening environment!    Speakers systems can sound radically different in your home than in the store.  Radically different.    They can also sound very different in different placements in your home.    So don't buy speakers from any place where you can't take them home to experiment, and return them without a restocking fee.

Another tip - when you go to the store for a listening test bring your own program material - examples of music YOU listen to, not whatever they have lying around the store.

Another tip - the frequency response of the human ear varies with loudness - this is why audio gear has a "loudness control" - so beware of an audio salesman trick: louder music will "sound" like it has better bass and treble, so they tend to turn the volume up on the gear they're trying to sell you.  Always A-B speakers at the same volume.

OT: I love this -  "I would take a trip down to a brick and motor audio store ".  Is this a " 'scuse me while I kiss this guy" moment?  I see where you get "brick and motor" but it's "brick and mortar".

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #12 –
Indeed. Weakest link in an audio system is usually the ROOM, then the speakers, then everything else runs a distant third.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Indeed. Weakest link in an audio system is usually the ROOM, then the speakers, then everything else runs a distant third.

I'm not sure I would use the term "weakness".

The room is the most complex variable..    ALL rooms, except for carefully-designed anechoic chambers, or pure outdoors, will have standing waves at certain frequencies which will inevitably create peaks and valleys in the bass (<300 Hz).    A different room will have peaks and valleys at different frequencies.  By measuring the dimensions of the room you can make a pretty good guess where they will be, using the handy F=1130/2*d formula.

Likwise the materials in the furniture, walls, drapery, and other factors affect how much high-frequency absorption you get, hence how bright or dull it sounds, as well as how much sound reflection you get, which is also affected by where you listen from.

Some audiophile purists object to equalizers but the fact is that virtually every room has such an extreme sonic "personality" that there just isn't any other practical way to get flat frequency response so that you are hearing exactly what it is that the recording or audio engineer intended you to hear.    I'm always amused when I hear people fretting over an amplifier that has +/- 0.5 dB frequency responce, 20Hz-20KHz, blissfully unconcerned that their particular speaker system in their particular room can't even maintain 6dB of flatness between two adjacent octaves.

The problem is that corrcting this is a tedious process involving an audio signal generator and a calibrated microphone AND a good equalizer (unless you have a lot of freedom to rearrange furniture and put up anechoic panels).

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #14 –
Oh, damnit. Buy the speakers you like, cable them with fat speaker cables of cheap kind (fat ones with a lot of tiny little strings), and connect them to amp which has enough inputs for your other equipment.

Amps are amps, if they "lack bass", there's that BASS knob there.
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Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #15 –
In reading through this thread, I realize how hard it is to find the right balance, especially when you are starting out.

I think it helps if you can hear what you are buying, especially speakers. And not in a mass market mid fi shop, but in a quiet, high end shop setting or in a friend's home. Many audiophile shops have lower priced gear that is no more expensive that what's in the big retailers but often sounds better and is of higher build quality. As others have said, bring your own music.

You should also listen to gear that is both less and much more expensive than your price point. It will give you a sense of what's possible, where the diminishing returns are and if the pieces you selected really do sound better than the lesser models.

Later, after you have purchased your first set-up and have a good sense of its strengths and weaknesses, think about upgrading select components with used high-end gear. The stuff is generally well cared for, with very long or lifetime warranties and sells for a fraction of the new price. A good shop will even check it out for a nominal fee. Many sell trade-in gear.  Most of my gear is >10 yrs old, was purchased used and sounds fantastic. (subjectively speaking ;-)
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Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: plnelson on
The problem is that correcting this is a tedious process involving an audio signal generator and a calibrated microphone AND a good equalizer.

It's not really so tedious these days with many modern receivers offering effective roomEQ options.  Audyssey is the best option and available in Denon and Onkyo equipment amongst other options.

Quote from: Blankwire on
If you don't feel comfortable investing in high end equipment, don't. There's a lot of people that are fine with mid-range (what I  would consider ~$90 - $150) gear.

No offense, but I can't think of too much mid-fi equipment going for $90-150 outside of things like the AT440MLa cartridge.  As a general rule, mid-fi begins closer to $1000.  Below that is strictly entry-level.  Not bad, but not generally considered mid-fi.  Anything $150 or below is definitely an entry-level/low-fi option.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #17 –
An important piece of hardware that most people ignore is the equlizer. The equalizer allows you to fine tune your system's sound to your room, and/or your ears, and/or your taste!

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Light-Fire on
An important piece of hardware that most people ignore is the equlizer. The equalizer allows you to fine tune your system's sound to your room, and/or your ears, and/or your taste!


IME Unless it's parametric, and you use very little, eq tends to introduce as many problems as is supposedly fixes. Better speakers & more careful placement, and perhaps a rug or two tend to be more effective at "fixing" sound than graphic equalizers.

Of course it it works for you, who's to say...
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Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Light-Fire on
An important piece of hardware that most people ignore is the equlizer. The equalizer allows you to fine tune your system's sound to your room, and/or your ears, and/or your taste!


Software equalizers are very accurate if you are using a computer as a source.

I agree completely on loading your money first into speakers/headphones.

I would suggest a computer as source to an m-audio usb outboard d/a converter to a good quality basic amp such as a nad or denon.

Excellent to near world class sound for about 4 grand.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: kennedyb4 on
Software equalizers are very accurate if you are using a computer as a source.


I agree, they are accurate in the frequency bands they cover, but graphic equalizers are a bit like using a sledge hammer to cut a melon.  Not very effective and it leaves a mess.

Most rooms are either too live on the top end (ringing, slap echo) or have bass issues (muddy, boomy, not enough) . Equalizers don't really help, they just mask the problem. Better to spend the time tweaking the speaker placement, shifting a rug or adding/moving a bookcase.

Of course for those times when you want to rattle the windows, there's nothing like having a lot of eq. :-)

I agree with you too that a pc with an outboard dac makes an excellent source. Then you can just spend  relatively small amount on an amp and speakers.
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Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #21 –
Don't forget guys: the pros use eq's in the studio!

Bad eq's sound bad but good eq's sound good.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: benski on
It's not always as featureful, but I've found that pro audio equipment has superb high sound quality for a much lower price.  I wouldn't trade my Mackie HR824's (~US$1600/pair) for even the most elite of audiophile speakers.  Just have to find something with XLR outputs to drive them


My M-Audio Fast Track Pro has balanced TRS outputs, which I use to drive the XLR inputs on my Mackie HR624's.
Dan

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Light-Fire on
Don't forget guys: the pros use eq's in the studio!

Bad eq's sound bad but good eq's sound good.


Indeed they do.  (I assume you mean a recording studio here.) Pro's use all sorts of stuff to get the results they want and what comes out may bear little resemblence to the original.

But what exactly is 'the original'?  Not so long ago, I recall some well known music producer (wish I could remember which one) on TV telling us that he would never want anybody to hear any of his artists play live.  The studio was where it all happened.  Now I happen to disagree with him there but maybe his comments say more about his artists than his methods.  Perhaps their live efforts would sound absolutely awful!  The point is that while die-hard audiophiles worry about frequency response, the producer of 'the original' has already warped it to suit his own taste.

Now some might say that what comes out of the studio is the original and we should aim to reproduce it as faithfully as possible but here we have another snag, one which I stumbled upon while trying to replace a damaged track on a compilation CD.  The track was Unchained Melody so I had plenty of other compilations to choose from but which one to use?  They all sounded subtly different!  It would appear that as each CD was mastered the frequency response was tweaked.  So which one is the true 'original?  I'm still trying to figure it out.

Does Hi End equipment really worht?

Reply #24 –
My personal thoughts on this:

First of all, determine your listening room conditions like size, reflectivity etc. Choose your speakers accordingly then ... especially when it comes to general size and bass potential (in general, small rooms' standing bass waves are of higher frequency and might just interfere to a higher extend with larger speakers).

Secondly, Speakers and amps should match electrically ... to accurately perform dynamic steps in music at higher volumes, the amp should feed the speaker what it needs without clipping the power output (which is what actually kills chassis coils) ... the speaker efficiency will be a measure for its wattage needs.

Using an EQ (preferably 4 or more full parametric Bands) could help you deal with problematic frequencies in your room (resonances) and some poorly mastered music.

In general, there is no price tag that leads to good music reproduction ... speakers and headphones must be chosen by listening ... amps are generally being chosen by the amount of required inputs, the needed features (goes for CD players as well) and the power output after the speakers have been determined.
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