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Topic: Recording Vinyl to Digital (Read 7419 times) previous topic - next topic
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Recording Vinyl to Digital

Hardware:
    Mixer: Allen & Heath Xone:92
    Turntable: Vestax PDX2000
    Needle: Shure White labelz  (weight set to 4g)
    Recorder: M-Audio MicoTrack (24bit/48Khz/WAV)[/li]

The turntable is plugged into the mixer and the mixer's REC OUT is going to the Recorder... The EQ on the mixer is flat, and the volume is just below 0dB..

Here is a image of my freq analisis... why so much bass? Im guessing because it's analog.. bass being left and right movement, it's easy for the needle to generate extra frequency...



So... how do I flatten this out properly? Should I lower the bass and then normalize the track? Or do I up the high-end and normalize?

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #1 –
You need an RIAA compensation curve in there.  It will reduce the bass and increase the highs.  All LP's after a certain date in the mid-late 50's were compensated on the "RIAA curve."  Audacity can correct this, I think.  Do a search on the board for RIAA.   
Nov schmoz kapop.

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #2 –
Quote
You need an RIAA compensation curve in there.  It will reduce the bass and increase the highs.  All LP's after a certain date in the mid-late 50's were compensated on the "RIAA curve."  Audacity can correct this, I think.  Do a search on the board for RIAA.   
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365932"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Thanks, but this is a cut from last year, drum & bass music... all very modern.

I guess rerecording with my analyizer active while adjusting the bass knob on the mixer is best... analog editing vs digital...

Unless 48khz recording has enough oversampling room to produce nice digital edits... tho i think i'd need 96 for that sorta bandwidth... but the quality can only be as good as the overall average quality of my gear...

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #3 –
(Disclaimer: I don't rip vinyl, so I don't really know)
Modern drumz 'n bass tracks are often.... well, bassy. Does the rip sound like too much bass? Just for curiousity, have you tried it without the DJ mixer to compare? I was not familiar with the M-Audio Microtrac (I use a Midiman/M-Audio Delta 66, but haven't tried it on vinyl yet). On a quick search, I see it has mic preamps. The preamps are very hot and very quiet in my Delta 66, I don't know, but I would suppose that it would take a turntable direct fine.

As you said, it's nice to have a mixer though, to easily make changes while it's analog. Without hearing it, the waveform looks like much modern music, except for the quiet spot in the middle it's a pretty constant level, and perhaps highly compressed in the recording.

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #4 –
Quote
(Disclaimer: I don't rip vinyl, so I don't really know)
Modern drumz 'n bass tracks are often.... well, bassy. Does the rip sound like too much bass? Just for curiousity, have you tried it without the DJ mixer to compare? I was not familiar with the M-Audio Microtrac (I use a Midiman/M-Audio Delta 66, but haven't tried it on vinyl yet). On a quick search, I see it has mic preamps. The preamps are very hot and very quiet in my Delta 66, I don't know, but I would suppose that it would take a turntable direct fine.

As you said, it's nice to have a mixer though, to easily make changes while it's analog. Without hearing it, the waveform looks like much modern music, except for the quiet spot in the middle it's a pretty constant level, and perhaps highly compressed in the recording.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365938"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Well, a straight studio cut (raw digital form) is perfectly flat... Im starting to beleive this is all about the needle vibrating and producing the extra frequencies... It makes sense, doesn't it?

Sry to reply to my own post, but see - im trying my best to work this problem out

I'll trim the basson the mixer and RTA it and rerecord as soon as i get the bass leveled out.

BTW, Audition (Cool Edit) is soooo much better then Sound Forge!!!

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #5 –
Quote
As you said, it's nice to have a mixer though, to easily make changes while it's analog.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365938"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Well, I mean to say, I think it'd be better to get the changes made before it hits a digital format, as once it's in digital form, you don't get the smooth antialising you do with analog editing.

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #6 –
Do you have a straight studio cut of the same track to compare? I was going to suggest comparing to a CD, but figured if you were ripping vinyl it may be hard to come by.

Yes, bass and the needle definitely interact. I dimly remember stories about the Beatles' studio experimentation. Once they got rich and famous enough to afford it, they spent a lot of time experimenting in the studio. They wanted "more bass". In completely playing around, they would put another speaker cone to cone with Paul's bass, and feed it directly into the board, mis-match and all. Some of their acetate/test versions could make the needle jump out of the groove.

I've seen a picture of John Lennon screaming at a bottle of water, with a plastic-wrapped mic submerged in it. He wanted 'something different'.

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #7 –
Modern has nothing to do with it. That's like trying to say a modern cassette recorder has given up trying to properly match any particular type of tape. The current specification was finally agreed upon by al manufacturers more than fifty years ago. Before that, everyone used their own, and not necessairly consistently.

It is highly unlikely that a LP has been cut without the recording EQ being applied to the process. This has absolutly nothing to do with any EQ used in mixing or mastering an album; it is for cutting the master and thus necesary for proper playback.

There is a significant roll off below 31Hz in the RIAA playback specification, which may relate to your excess bass problem.

Unless this is a very unusual disk and you are sure of the information about it, you can be sure playback isn't ever going to sound right without a proper preamp. While it is possible to do the EQ in software after recording, it is hard to get a good recording to begin with because "flat" response from the LP is so very unflat that it is hard to capture decent levels at some frequencies without overloading the preamp at others.

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #8 –
Quote
Quote
You need an RIAA compensation curve in there.  It will reduce the bass and increase the highs.  All LP's after a certain date in the mid-late 50's were compensated on the "RIAA curve."  Audacity can correct this, I think.  Do a search on the board for RIAA.   
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365932"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Thanks, but this is a cut from last year, drum & bass music... all very modern.

I guess rerecording with my analyizer active while adjusting the bass knob on the mixer is best... analog editing vs digital...

Unless 48khz recording has enough oversampling room to produce nice digital edits... tho i think i'd need 96 for that sorta bandwidth... but the quality can only be as good as the overall average quality of my gear...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365933"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Read boojum's line about ALL LP'S AFTER THE MID 50's USING RIAA CURVE.  Last time I checked, current drum and bass music was made after the mid 50's.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #9 –
I am not knowledgeable about LP's ( but do have some ) but....

Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Quoting http://www.enhancedaudio.com/eqcurve.htm :

Quote
In order to create records in the first place, adjustments had to be made to compensate for the lack of surface space on a record.  Because records rely on grooves, in order to accurately relay Bass passages on a record, the grooves would need to be so far apart that in many cases it would be impossible to fit a full song on a 78 or more than one or two on an LP.  In order to compensate, records were designed minus a great deal of the Bass and manufacturers depended on the equipment that they were played on to add that bass back into the file during the listening process.

An EQ Curve is simply a preset equalizer that says, "I know you're going to be missing these frequencies...I'll just put them back in automatically."



Yet, I don't see the curve as being that much wrong..

If it was flat, either it would mean an astonishing amount of compression, or an unlistenable piece.
Remember that what you're showing is a representation of the whole piece, in one shot, which is different from a realtime spectrum.

[Edit: else -> either]

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #10 –
I was wrong.  The recording process had reduced bass and increased treble.  This was reversed in playback.  Regardless, this LP will have to be run through an RIAA compensation to get what was truly recorded, unless you know that it was recorded flat.  I would be surprised if it was recorded flat, but it is not impossible.

Sorry for the error.  Follow this link for a clear description of the process: http://www.tanker.se/lidstrom/riaa.htm

Nov schmoz kapop.

Recording Vinyl to Digital

Reply #11 –
Quote
I was wrong.  The recording had reduced bass and increased treble. 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366034"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Sure this is what it SHOULD have, but the opposite of what he is claiming.