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Topic: Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen? (Read 14625 times) previous topic - next topic
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Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Wherein "including" may best be interpreted as "consisting of" for now... 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/661411/the-fiio-x...0#post_11639780

Your turn? 

(might not be the most contentful post of the day but bear with me, I haven't posted here for years  edit: just... more than a year, as it turns out  )

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #1 –
Quote from: Joe Bloggs on
Wherein "including" may best be interpreted as "consisting of" for now... 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/661411/the-fiio-x...0#post_11639780

Your turn? 

(might not be the most contentful post of the day but bear with me, I haven't posted here for years  edit: just... more than a year, as it turns out  )



Nice post and all the luck in the world with your low key approach.

I recently did some posting on another forum (Slim Devices) and it seemed like all of the $#!^ in the world fell on my head. I tried like blazes to not mention ABX but they laid that one on me, too. I even got attacked by someone who had just done the same over here, even re-posting some of the same spew he had just posted over here.

People were calling for me to be banned from there and the whole 9 yards. Lots of name calling.

There seems to be a lot of bad emotional baggage that goes with being a placebophile, I guess.  The bad behavior may just be another sign that it doesn't work and leads to a lot of frustration.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #2 –
My best recent shot at explaining the need for ABX includes not mentioning it.

I just say I'm willing for people to post what they will, but I will only give credibility to listening tests that do a decent job of controlling false positives and false negatives.

If they bite on  this, then it is a good time to explain how casual sighted audiophile listening evaluations aren't even tests, and are full of strong influences that cause massive amounts of both false positives and false negatives. The list of biasing and confounding influences is about the right size - 4-6 items.

I might say that I'm interested in hearing about listening tests that are really tests and also do a decent job of controlling false positives and false negatives but aren't blind tests.

I seriously consider blinding a necessary evil, but so are death and taxes! ;-)

If this sounds interesting to you, I can go on, but the locals have already seen the show! ;-)

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #3 –
A link to a McGurk effect youtube video might give laymen a bit of an idea what you are up to if you want to compete against something you have seen with your own two eyes. Or ... maybe not?

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #4 –
I just read the post and the reply. I see that a wife is mentioned, but not the very salient information as to whether or not that wife could hear differences from the kitchen.

Enquiring audiophile minds need to know.

The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Porcus on
A link to a McGurk effect youtube video might give laymen a bit of an idea what you are up to if you want to compete against something you have seen with your own two eyes. Or ... maybe not?



Did the McGurk effect video do any good with RichB?

This guy sounds a lot like him - no doubt someone else but maybe in a similar state of mind - denying the pervasiveness of bias and claiming that his biases are all under his conscious control.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I recently did some posting on another forum (Slim Devices) and it seemed like all of the $#!^ in the world fell on my head.

To be fair you posted in the  "Audiophiles" forum over there where it often gets knee-deep.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Apesbrain on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I recently did some posting on another forum (Slim Devices) and it seemed like all of the $#!^ in the world fell on my head.

To be fair you posted in the  "Audiophiles" forum over there where it often gets knee-deep.



That came about because I was following the discussion of Archimago's Blog article about minimum and linear phase filters for upsampling.

He had posted an invitation over here.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Porcus on
A link to a McGurk effect youtube video might give laymen a bit of an idea what you are up to if you want to compete against something you have seen with your own two eyes. Or ... maybe not?


Did the McGurk effect video do any good with RichB?


I figured that the "for laymen" phrase (which most of us are, yourself being an exception) was not to be interpreted as "to convince even the worst cases" ...

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Porcus on
A link to a McGurk effect youtube video might give laymen a bit of an idea what you are up to if you want to compete against something you have seen with your own two eyes. Or ... maybe not?


Did the McGurk effect video do any good with RichB?


I figured that the "for laymen" phrase (which most of us are, yourself being an exception) was not to be interpreted as "to convince even the worst cases" ...


Agreed. The video is pretty clear and should convince all but the hardest cases. It is fun to watch.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #10 –
It's funny to see people try to use the McGurk effect to argue against DBT.

Apparently the effect doesn't work on everyone, so, yeah it isn't enough to convince the hardest core koolaid drinkers. Then there are the people who either can't be bothered to research or are too afraid of what they might discover.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I recently did some posting on another forum (Slim Devices) and it seemed like all of the $#!^ in the world fell on my head. I tried like blazes to not mention ABX but they laid that one on me, too. I even got attacked by someone who had just done the same over here, even re-posting some of the same spew he had just posted over here.

People were calling for me to be banned from there and the whole 9 yards. Lots of name calling.

There seems to be a lot of bad emotional baggage that goes with being a placebophile, I guess.  The bad behavior may just be another sign that it doesn't work and leads to a lot of frustration.

I'm a long-time member of the Slim Devices forum, and have had my share of run-ins with the loopier elements that inhabit the audiophile section. But I have to say that the recent exchange between you and others (I presume you're referring to the uptone audio regen argument) is far more extreme than normally happens.

I think, Arny, that you have to consider the possibility that you rise to the bait a little too easily. Some people very quickly reveal themselves as not being worth arguing with. When most other people would have just given up and found something else to do, you seem to delight in continuing to kick the hornets' nest. It takes two to tango - or fight. Just a thought.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: cliveb on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I recently did some posting on another forum (Slim Devices) and it seemed like all of the $#!^ in the world fell on my head. I tried like blazes to not mention ABX but they laid that one on me, too. I even got attacked by someone who had just done the same over here, even re-posting some of the same spew he had just posted over here.

People were calling for me to be banned from there and the whole 9 yards. Lots of name calling.

There seems to be a lot of bad emotional baggage that goes with being a placebophile, I guess.  The bad behavior may just be another sign that it doesn't work and leads to a lot of frustration.

I'm a long-time member of the Slim Devices forum, and have had my share of run-ins with the loopier elements that inhabit the audiophile section. But I have to say that the recent exchange between you and others (I presume you're referring to the uptone audio regen argument) is far more extreme than normally happens.


The placebophiles on that forum are not being properly disciplined by those of the rational viewpoint. The childish level of the rhetoric that the 'boes (placebophiles) have been getting away with is pretty lame. Some of the rational viewpoint have admitted that they really aren't up to presenting their positions as strongly as they they would like. IMO, this is a shame. The 'boes now know that they have more than met their match. IMO this is all good.

Quote
I think, Arny, that you have to consider the possibility that you rise to the bait a little too easily. Some people very quickly reveal themselves as not being worth arguing with. When most other people would have just given up and found something else to do, you seem to delight in continuing to kick the hornets' nest. It takes two to tango - or fight. Just a thought.


It's a working strategy: My goal is that every time a 'boe logs on to the thread, he is faced a wall of challenging posts that is more than he can handle. Every challenging post that thus goes unchallenged by the 'boes is uncontested truth that they would like to suppress but can't. Sometimes, coming up with enough rebuttals to create this wall takes a little digging. That is all.

One of my goals is to leave enough unexploded ammunition around so that the local rationalists don't have to make up all of their arguments on their own in the future.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: greynol on
It's funny to see people try to use the McGurk effect to argue against DBT.

Apparently the effect doesn't work on everyone, so, yeah it isn't enough to convince the hardest core koolaid drinkers. Then there are the people who either can't be bothered to research or are too afraid of what they might discover.


I had one 'boe tell me refuse to watch it because he didn't believe in clicking on YouTube videos for fear of getting a virus or malware. ;-)

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Apesbrain on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I recently did some posting on another forum (Slim Devices) and it seemed like all of the $#!^ in the world fell on my head.

To be fair you posted in the  "Audiophiles" forum over there where it often gets knee-deep.


Based on my experiences over on the SD Audiophiles forum I checked out the Regen thread over on CA.  I think they ought to rename the site CP as in Computer Placebophile.  This thread is freakin' unbelievable!

Click this link only if your mouth is empty and your tummy feels really good.

The thread has about 250 posts right now, which is pretty close to the current sales of the Regen device. I wonder if every purchaser had to promise to post to have his order accepted.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #15 –
CA, outer space that is. One member that once heard clear advantages of a 24bit recording that was later pulled from sale as being a 16bit fake has a list of around 7 aspects of sound that was bettered by the regen. Of course he prefers dsd. Btw. since you mention the Slim forum. Afaik in Archimagos recent listening test and the older one there never was a usefull contribution of any of these placebophiles.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: greynol on
It's funny to see people try to use the McGurk effect to argue against DBT.


Hm? How? Because seeing the guy patently changes the sound, therefore tests must be sighted?


Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Apparently the effect doesn't work on everyone


How do they know, have first read what to reply?


Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I had one 'boe tell me refuse to watch it because he didn't believe in clicking on YouTube videos for fear of getting a virus or malware. ;-)


Yeah! A lossy-encoded video, that is even worse malware than [F|A]LAC - let it into your DAC and your WAV files will never sound the same again.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #17 –
McGurk Effect videos, Meyer & Moran white papers, web sites of NWAVGUY, Sean Olive, Tom Nousaine, Rod Elliott, The Audio Critic, et al have no effect on people who simply Want To Believe. To an audio nut job, rhetoric carries at least as much weight as scientific evidence if not more.

Buzz Aldrin knows how to deal with aggressively stupid people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wptn5RE2I-k

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: cliveb on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I recently did some posting on another forum (Slim Devices) and it seemed like all of the $#!^ in the world fell on my head. I tried like blazes to not mention ABX but they laid that one on me, too. I even got attacked by someone who had just done the same over here, even re-posting some of the same spew he had just posted over here.

People were calling for me to be banned from there and the whole 9 yards. Lots of name calling.

There seems to be a lot of bad emotional baggage that goes with being a placebophile, I guess.  The bad behavior may just be another sign that it doesn't work and leads to a lot of frustration.

I'm a long-time member of the Slim Devices forum, and have had my share of run-ins with the loopier elements that inhabit the audiophile section. But I have to say that the recent exchange between you and others (I presume you're referring to the uptone audio regen argument) is far more extreme than normally happens.


The placebophiles on that forum are not being properly disciplined by those of the rational viewpoint. The childish level of the rhetoric that the 'boes (placebophiles) have been getting away with is pretty lame. Some of the rational viewpoint have admitted that they really aren't up to presenting their positions as strongly as they they would like. IMO, this is a shame. The 'boes now know that they have more than met their match. IMO this is all good.

Quote
I think, Arny, that you have to consider the possibility that you rise to the bait a little too easily. Some people very quickly reveal themselves as not being worth arguing with. When most other people would have just given up and found something else to do, you seem to delight in continuing to kick the hornets' nest. It takes two to tango - or fight. Just a thought.


It's a working strategy: My goal is that every time a 'boe logs on to the thread, he is faced a wall of challenging posts that is more than he can handle. Every challenging post that thus goes unchallenged by the 'boes is uncontested truth that they would like to suppress but can't. Sometimes, coming up with enough rebuttals to create this wall takes a little digging. That is all.

One of my goals is to leave enough unexploded ammunition around so that the local rationalists don't have to make up all of their arguments on their own in the future.


Jesus, we could really use someone like you over on head-fi, except you'd probably be banned in a day--I'm guessing you already are

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Joe Bloggs on
Jesus, we could really use someone like you over on head-fi, except you'd probably be banned in a day--I'm guessing you already are


Not banned there. Never even tried! I read their TOS and that was that.

As they say, discretion is the better part of valor. ;-)

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #20 –
There is (as I'm sure you know  ) a nice cosy little science subforum where rationalists can be put away so that they don't hurt anybody.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
There is (as I'm sure you know  ) a nice cosy little science subforum where rationalists can be put away so that they don't hurt anybody.


I read hurt as really being help.

Seems like a waste of my time.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #22 –
Here's a really simple rationale:
You want to tell the truth and make useful reviews. If you make claims about audio differences, then they better are reproducible and not just a result of your biases, prejudices, opinions ...

And no, you cannot eliminate biases etc. by telling yourself that you will not be influenced by them. As a case in point, telling a patient that all they receive is a placebo, heck, even making it painstakingly clear that all they receive is a few drops of water or globules (small beads) of sugar will NOT consistently eliminate the placebo effect. A few patients will still feel that the placebos "work".

The sighted listening impression results in claims about audio differences, a blind test provides the evidence. Nobody should accept baseless claims. We need to be skeptical because in audio people hear what they want to hear (and sell).
"I hear it when I see it."

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #23 –
@Arnold:
The rules at Hoffman's forum are, shall we say, curious?  Have you read them?

@xnor:
Those are just your biases talking.

Best explanation of rationale for ABX for laymen?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: greynol on
@Arnold:
The rules at Hoffman's forum are, shall we say, curious?  Have you read them?


With some googling I found them, and they are different but mostly I get their rationale.

What weirds you out about them?