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Does Replay gain work differtly in Media monkey, Foobar and Media Monkey given 2 differnt Results
post Sep 3 2010, 02:57
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Hey Anyone,
For the past 2 years I have been using Media Monkey to Organize and play my music collection which is now about 42,000 tracks about 75% of my collection has Replay gain Values....I am making the switch over to Foobar2000 and was about to replay gain the other 25% with it (Foobar) when I discovered that for the same album I was getting 2 different values...and it is making me wonder does Media Monkey use a different algorithm or is there something I am overlooking...both are set to tag by ALBUM with the track value put in there also. Here are my results: blink.gif

Miles Davis /Jack Johnson Soundtrack/ crying.gif crying.gif
Trk1 Right Off -FOOBAR--Album Gain -1.97db Trk Gain -2.49db
Trk 2 Yesternow-FOOBAR Album Gain -1.97db Trk Gain -0.87db

Trk 1 Right Off Media monkey--Album Vol=-7.9db Trk Vol= -8.4db
Trk 2 Yesternow Media Monkey--Album Vol= -7.9db Trk Vol= - 6.8db

Could someone shed some light on this for me.
Thank You
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post Sep 6 2010, 11:02
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ReplayGain developer

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I've downloaded Media Monkey for the first time ever this morning, and tried to figure out what it's doing.

Firstly, AFAICT, I can't make it write a REPLAYGAIN_REFERENCE_LEVEL tag. Has anyone actually seen this program generate these tags? If so, how/when/why?

Secondly, it doesn't call its implementation "ReplayGain" or use any of the conventional names for ReplayGain-related funcationality. However, it clearly credits Glen Sawyer for mp3gain and myself for ReplayGain. The documentation states that MM's volume levelling is ReplayGain...
MediaMonkey supports Replay Gain analysis and playback (via 'Analyze Volume' and 'Level Playback Volume').
from http://www.mediamonkey.com/support/index.p...ownloaditemid=2

In MM, the right-click context menu includes "Analyze volume", which seems to perform a standard ReplayGain scan and store the result in standard tags. (Note: there are settings elsewhere that will affect the whether the Album value is calculated)

The right-click context menu also includes "Level Track Volume", which seems to perform a standard mp3gain-style change to the audio data itself.

In MM, if you go to Tools, Options, Player, Volume Levelling, you will find the following settings:

Target volume level for Playback: This is a pre-amp, but instead of 0dB for "no change from ReplayGain default", it says explicitly 89dB (which is the ReplayGain default). If you change it to 90dB, that's the same as +1dB in fb2k. If you change it to 87dB, that's the same as -1dB in fb2k. etc. Just add or subtract 89dB to transform to/from the more common choice of number. The same is true for all the values discussed below.

checkbox: Level playback volume: enable or disable ReplayGain during playback
per Track / per Album: use Track or Album ReplayGain values

Target volume for leveling(sic) tracks: The target volume when using the mp3gain-style function to change the audio data itself.

Target Volume Level for Ripping Audio CDs: This is the level used if you ask the ripper to volume level the tracks. (the tooltip is completely wrong!)
Level Ripped Tracks: per track / per album: use Track or Album ReplayGain values

checkbox: Clipping Prevention: This enables clipping prevention during playback, and when ripping CDs with volume levelling, but not when applying a gain change to a file AFAICT.

There's one issue that could cause unexpected problems - the mp3 encoding and decoding pipelines don't allow for values greater than 0dB. This means...
1. If you choose settings that clip the audio when ripping with volume levelling enabled, that's it - the clipping is hard coded into audio data of the mp3s. You can't remove it later by lowering the level. You'll have to re-rip from the original CD.
(If you enable clipping prevention, then tracks that would have been clipped will just be peak normalised instead)
2. If there are sample values over 0dB "within" the mp3 file (e.g. due to normal lossy encoding of loud CDs, or CDs that you make loud by enabling volume levelling, or due to using mp3gain-like procesisng to apply a positive gain change to an mp3 file), these will get clipped during playback. It doesn't matter if you turn clipping prevention on. It doesn't matter if the ReplayGain values cause the files to be turned down anyway. The audio will still get clipped - it'll then get turned down after it's been clipped!
3. The ReplayGain_track_peak and _album_peak values written by MM for mp3 files will be incorrect if the audio data "within" the mp3 peaks above 0dB FS. It'll stored any values over 1.0 as 1.0, so no software will know these files are clipped.

If you rip with volume levelling enabled, it'll write a ReplayGain_track_gain tag (only - no peak tag). If Clipping Prevention was enabled when ripping, this tag could be completely wrong - MM seems to store a value that might have been right if clipping prevention hadn't been enabled. MM seems to ignore these tags, but some other players read them, giving unwanted results (e.g. desperately quiet audio).

So, lots of things to nit-pick over, but in terms of its implementation of a pre-amp and the possibility that it may use non-standard tags, MM is actually pretty standard, even if on the surface it uses different names for everything.


This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Sep 6 2010, 11:07
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post Sep 6 2010, 23:02
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 6 2010, 04:02) *
So, lots of things to nit-pick over, but in terms of its implementation of a pre-amp and the possibility that it may use non-standard tags, MM is actually pretty standard, even if on the surface it uses different names for everything.

David, thanks for taking the time to look at this. The things you found could explain some unexpected behaviors I've seen. However, I don't think anything I've posted here pertains to the hazards you've exposed. Some of the larger issues are still open as far as I'm concerned.

Should Replay Gain implementations allow users to customize the target volume?

Do you expect there be interoperability problems if users using different target volume settings share files with one another?

Does adjusting the target volume downwards afford one more headroom to accommodate a greater variation in apparent loudness (i.e. solve the problem I describe in my previous post)?

If so, is adjusting the target the best way to accomplish this or are implementations expected to have a preamp gain setting like we see in FB2000?
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Posts in this topic
- jimmanningjr   Does Replay gain work differtly in Media monkey   Sep 3 2010, 02:57
- - klonuo   perhaps your MM target level is set on 89-6 dB Ed...   Sep 3 2010, 03:06
|- - jimmanningjr   QUOTE (klonuo @ Sep 2 2010, 22:06) perhap...   Sep 3 2010, 06:20
- - 2Bdecided   It certainly looks like a 6dB offset you're se...   Sep 3 2010, 10:43
- - krabapple   QUOTE (jimmanningjr @ Sep 2 2010, 21:57) ...   Sep 4 2010, 04:27
- - Notat   I've seen this too and was wondering if it is ...   Sep 4 2010, 17:34
- - greynol   There is REPLAYGAIN_REFERENCE_LEVEL which was init...   Sep 4 2010, 17:45
|- - jimmanningjr   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 4 2010, 12:45) There...   Sep 4 2010, 20:15
|- - Notat   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 4 2010, 10:45) Notat...   Sep 6 2010, 03:16
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Notat @ Sep 5 2010, 19:16) I'd...   Sep 6 2010, 04:36
||- - Notat   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 5 2010, 21:36) QUOTE...   Sep 6 2010, 22:49
|- - Teknojnky   QUOTE (Notat @ Sep 5 2010, 20:16) MediaMo...   Sep 7 2010, 16:48
|- - Notat   QUOTE (Teknojnky @ Sep 7 2010, 09:48) QUO...   Sep 8 2010, 02:40
- - Alex B   Assuming you want to have universally compatible r...   Sep 5 2010, 19:36
- - 2Bdecided   I've downloaded Media Monkey for the first tim...   Sep 6 2010, 11:02
|- - Notat   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 6 2010, 04:02) So,...   Sep 6 2010, 23:02
|- - chrisjj   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 6 2010, 11:02) MM ...   Sep 8 2010, 02:50
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (chrisjj @ Sep 8 2010, 02:50) QUOTE...   Sep 8 2010, 07:38
|- - chrisjj   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 8 2010, 07:38) If ...   Sep 9 2010, 00:54
- - 2Bdecided   Notat, Maybe I didn't make it clear, so let m...   Sep 7 2010, 09:37
|- - Notat   Thanks for the clarification. What is throwing me ...   Sep 7 2010, 15:59
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Notat @ Sep 7 2010, 15:59) when I ...   Sep 7 2010, 16:45
|- - chrisjj   QUOTE (Notat @ Sep 7 2010, 15:59) What is...   Sep 8 2010, 02:47
- - greynol   Can we have an update to the site so that this doe...   Sep 8 2010, 07:51
- - 2Bdecided   Not from me. It either needs to stay as it is (an...   Sep 8 2010, 10:28
- - 2Bdecided   It was a proposed standard in July 2001. I think ...   Sep 9 2010, 11:13
|- - chrisjj   Thanks David for that explanation. QUOTE (2Bdecid...   Sep 9 2010, 12:05
|- - chrisjj   QUOTE (chrisjj @ Sep 9 2010, 12:05) QUOTE...   Sep 10 2010, 01:26
- - 2Bdecided   Well, maybe somebody can do that. http://www.yout...   Sep 9 2010, 12:55
|- - chrisjj   Agreed, but still if people want to take this forw...   Sep 9 2010, 13:05
|- - jimmanningjr   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 9 2010, 07:55) Wel...   Sep 14 2010, 00:43
- - load97   I had to register here to say thank as well! I...   Oct 13 2010, 08:30
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (load97 @ Oct 13 2010, 08:30) ... c...   Oct 13 2010, 10:27

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