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Dibrom&JohnV -how you see the future of LAME?
post Nov 30 2002, 03:32
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Topic should be:Dibrom&John and others, how do you see the future of LAME?

So tell me. I wanna know. tongue.gif

This post has been edited by FinCoder: Nov 30 2002, 03:36
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post Nov 30 2002, 10:05
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QUOTE (smok3 @ Nov 30 2002 - 01:19 AM)
speaking as a complete outsider to lame-dev i see the situation something like: lame-devs on one side making their best efforts (knowing that there is no real competition in the mp3 zone) and the user on the 2nd side, from the users point the encoder is only a 'black-box' with certain output.

The problem is that I don't think we're seeing the "best effort" from the developers. This may seem like a rude thing to say, but I honestly don't believe that most of the people who work on LAME could say they are giving it their best, certainly not if they are being honest. Furthermore, if people have the time and energy that it takes to argue about trivial matters (3.90.2 not being "official", 3.93 not being buggy), then they also have time to be coding and making improvements, or to use that energy to create a better development framework. It appears to me (and I've seen it said this way specifically) that most of the LAME developers view LAME as simply a pet project or hobby.. something to do when they are bored and have a little bit of free time, not something that is a real priority. This is fine, but it becomes a problem when the program has such a huge userbase. I discussed this before, and I think that it basically boils down to a matter of responsibility. If the developers do not want the responsibility that a project like LAME requires, then they should do something to remedy the situation. I believe that they owe at least that much to their users. Releases like 3.93 are unacceptable.

There is a big gap and probably the only way to implement such testing framework would be a 3rd person/community capable of talking to both sides and also that way the framework would be usefull for any other encoder out there that way.

I believe that I was that 3rd person for awhile. The problem is that for this situation to work, both parties have to participate equally. There was no shortage of users willing to provide feedback to the developers to improve quality, but there was little interest on the developer side in using that information and constantly providing improvements (again, we're seeing some now.. but a year after the fact, a time when many have lost interest in waiting). Furthermore, I feel that there is a bit of disdain for the common user from some of the developers. I saw some of this first hand when Alexander (the "unofficial" release manager) came to this board and implied that we were all basically a bunch of whiny windows users begging for more features, when in fact we (or at least I) were concerned that 3.93 would be released without proper testing and with quality issues. Lo and behold....

I feel that the biggest problem of all though is that I seem to be unable to reason with the developers on any of the issues which have come up. In most of the proposals I've made, I believe that I've presented a well reasoned and valid argument. In return, I see a lot of "missing the point" and simply completely misinterpreting or not understanding (or ignoring) the problems at hand. It seems that there is some sort of poor communication along the line. A good example of this recently is Gabriel's comment that this whole situation is basically about a "different frontend" that users here want. I don't even know where this notion comes from because it's so far from the critical point of the matter that if one were to interpret the argument this way, there could really be no fundamental understanding (hence it's no surprise that we have such a big problem here). Another example would be the one I pointed out above, with Alexander confusing the fact that we wanted 3.93 to be "quality oriented" with meaning that we wanted it to be "feature oriented". Ironically enough, the concerns of this board were ignored, and the "stable" release that Alexander spent so much time arguing about (which was basically the same thing we all wanted, we just wanted to approach the matter differently, or dare I say more properly) never actually came to be.

For more information on this, I suggest going back and reading this thread:


Particularly ALeidinger's (Alexander, the "unofficial" release manager) comments. As you can see, a lot of effort was put into arguing as to why Takehiro's code shouldn't be used for 3.93, and why the 3.93 (the buggy one that was recently released) indeed had no quality problems other than the fast presets. Alexander "knew" this from reading the code, from the fact that developers perfomed "listening tests" (questionable in itself), etc, etc, etc. And then the bit about Windows users. Oh, and I was accused of seeding FUD rolleyes.gif. In the end, 3.94 (or Takehiro's code) was tested much more than the released 3.93, which ended up being buggy despite Alexander's vigorous assertion to the opposite. Oh well. After reading that at least, it might become more clear, even from only this single matter, how disheveled the development process is and why I am ultimately fed up with it. I also feel that it is getting worse, especially as the confusion continues over what will be in 3.94 or 4.00 (or whatever it will be) and what is what in the different CVS branches.

<sci-fi> what about certain xchat/bitchx/mirc <-> eggdrop(s) <-> main database - web page solution, certain scripts could be writen so everyone running his own eggy could participate (sort of a half-p2p solution) </sci-fi>

The technical implementation is trivial really. It's who is running it, and how, that is important.
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Posts in this topic
- FinCoder   Dibrom&JohnV -how you see the future of LAME?   Nov 30 2002, 03:32
- - Dibrom   I really have no idea other than I think that nobo...   Nov 30 2002, 03:42
- - JohnV   Difficult question. It's no doubt difficult ti...   Nov 30 2002, 04:34
- - PatchWorKs   Do you mean is time to switch to Vorbis ? (i real...   Nov 30 2002, 04:40
- - JohnV   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Nov 30 2002 - 05:40 AM)Do...   Nov 30 2002, 04:46
- - Wombat   @Patchworks No ogg thread here!? Was there an...   Nov 30 2002, 04:49
- - smok3   what i wonder is: - what is supossed to be a good...   Nov 30 2002, 06:32
- - Dibrom   smok3: Yes, there is a possibility for a system l...   Nov 30 2002, 06:39
- - smok3   http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST...   Nov 30 2002, 07:07
- - Dibrom   QUOTE (smok3 @ Nov 29 2002 - 11:07 PM)QUOTE ...   Nov 30 2002, 07:15
- - smok3   QUOTE Takehiro has said that he is not really want...   Nov 30 2002, 09:19
- - Dibrom   QUOTE (smok3 @ Nov 30 2002 - 01:19 AM)speakin...   Nov 30 2002, 10:05
- - smok3   <guesswork> lame goals are: - better low bit...   Nov 30 2002, 11:42
- - hindred   Dibrom; if you were a lame-dev and weren't hap...   Nov 30 2002, 12:09
- - _Balint_   To Dibrom: I've heard and used the --alt-pre...   Nov 30 2002, 13:46
- - JohnV   QUOTE (_Balint_ @ Nov 30 2002 - 02:46 PM)I...   Nov 30 2002, 15:05
- - Dibrom   Well.. update on the situation. Now it seems Take...   Nov 30 2002, 15:10
- - Pio2001   In http://www.digital-inn.de/showthread.php?t...?t...   Nov 30 2002, 15:12
- - mithrandir   This doesn't look good for open-source. If LAM...   Nov 30 2002, 16:21
- - Negative Zero   QUOTE (Dibrom @ Nov 30 2002 - 09:10 AM)Well.....   Nov 30 2002, 17:31
- - _Balint_   QUOTE (JohnV @ Nov 30 2002 - 03:05 PM)If Dibr...   Dec 1 2002, 02:14
- - Nexx9   Well I'm stuck with MP3 for the time being con...   Dec 1 2002, 04:35
- - JohnMK   In my opinion this whole debate and the accompanyi...   Dec 1 2002, 05:57
- - fewtch   QUOTE (mithrandir @ Nov 30 2002 - 08:21 AM)Th...   Dec 1 2002, 07:58
- - fireballuk2001   QUOTE (Dibrom @ Nov 30 2002 - 02:10 PM)Well.....   Dec 1 2002, 20:43
- - Volcano   QUOTE Here are the directions that i would like la...   Dec 1 2002, 21:35
- - Dibrom   QUOTE (Volcano @ Dec 1 2002 - 01:35 PM)Dibrom...   Dec 1 2002, 21:40
- - stoff   QUOTE (Dibrom @ Nov 30 2002 - 03:10 PM)Well.....   Dec 1 2002, 21:49
- - JohnV   QUOTE (Volcano @ Dec 1 2002 - 10:35 PM)I don...   Dec 1 2002, 22:33
- - trekmaster   I'm not an expert on open source projects but ...   Dec 1 2002, 23:36
- - fireballuk2001   I can understand how takehiro feels... everyone is...   Dec 2 2002, 00:21
- - floyd   isn't the whole frontend thing about removing ...   Dec 2 2002, 01:32
- - LordofStars   My only problem with LAME is that the massive amou...   Dec 2 2002, 01:54
- - twlkwind   LAME needs a documentation like vorbis ogg.   Dec 2 2002, 01:58
- - mithrandir   Leadership is getting someone to do what they don...   Dec 2 2002, 02:44
- - Gabriel   No one ever read the doc here? For those who misse...   Dec 2 2002, 08:46
- - twlkwind   QUOTE (Gabriel @ Dec 2 2002 - 07:46 AM)No one...   Dec 2 2002, 08:56
- - cd-rw.org   QUOTE On HA, there're many ranting for new fea...   Dec 2 2002, 12:24
- - defiantiger   Sorry to revive, but having just joined and discov...   Jul 9 2003, 21:36
- - indybrett   I would like to see Dibrom take the LAME code and ...   Jul 9 2003, 21:58
- - Mac   I can see things here that aren't meant as dis...   Jul 9 2003, 23:12
- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE Vorbis is another promising project crying o...   Jul 10 2003, 00:21
- - defiantiger   QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Jul 9 2003, 03:21 PM...   Jul 16 2003, 10:39
- - bond   why arent the lame developers interested in improv...   Jul 16 2003, 11:48
- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE Its supporting a format that's getting a...   Jul 16 2003, 18:49
- - Mac   QUOTE (bond @ Jul 16 2003, 10:48 AM)why arent...   Jul 16 2003, 19:05
- - Gabriel   How many Lame developpers do you think there are? ...   Jul 17 2003, 08:04
- - Mac   My guesses would be 4 and 1, which explains why LA...   Jul 17 2003, 10:10

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