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Topic: MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing) (Read 82670 times) previous topic - next topic
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MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #75
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I think I probably agree with guruboolez.  I'm not sure this sort of change should be made to the presets.

I really think probably some sort of 2-pass method would be better.  Why not simply calculate the track gain first and use the resulting value as some sort of offset to the defaults for the presets, and then use the already calculated track gain for the encoded file?  That way you sort of get the 2-pass 'for free' because you were going to calculate it anyway.  The downside to this is that the replaygain  value probably won't be exactly what it would have been since the encoded file should calculate just a little bit differently, but the difference should be negligible (I think?).  But doing it this way would probably catch cases where even a preset modification might not be enough, while also allowing the bitrate for most things to stay where it's already at.  The other good thing is that this is something that could be implemented 100% at the frontend side.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312506"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, it's a good idea, but some people make mocking fun of such an idea. "How come the superior MPC codec can't handle this big issue, like the other codecs can?!" [which fail at other samples MPC doesn't fail at]. I think it's been blown out of proportion a little, the reactions have gone from zero to "biggest issue of MPC". It's not that big of an issue IMHO, still it should definitely be recognized (like it is now). Now, my slight problem with this 2-pass/RG fix is that it maybe can't be communicated to Average Joe that it is an intelligent fix for a rare issue, and that it would maybe be viewed as a "crutch" by some. A tweaked fix directly to the encoder wouldn't let those thoughts come up, and MPC would easily restore it's (top) position without changing the way the encoding is handled. So there you have it. If certain people can accept a 2-pass/RG solution, all the better. But maybe some people aren't satisfied no matter what.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #76
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The 2-pass approch seem like a good solution. Reusing the replaygain can cause problem though - you won't get correct peak information.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312507"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yeah, I hadn't thought about that.  I would think that the encoder should be able to return the correct peak information after encoding the file though and perhaps this could be combined with the other previously calculated information without having to discard everything.  I admittedly don't know how well this would work though.

If it came down to it, you could always calculate replaygain twice, but this would probably not make guruboolez happy

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #77
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Yes, it's a good idea, but some people make mocking fun of such an idea. "How come the superior MPC codec can't handle this big issue, like the other codecs can?!" [which fail at other samples MPC doesn't fail at]. I think it's been blown out of proportion a little, the reactions have gone from zero to "biggest issue of MPC". It's not that big of an issue IMHO, still it should definitely be recognized (like it is now). Now, my slight problem with this 2-pass/RG fix is that it maybe can't be communicated to Average Joe that it is an intelligent fix for a rare issue, and that it would maybe be viewed as a "crutch" by some. A tweaked fix directly to the encoder wouldn't let those thoughts come up, and MPC would easily restore it's (top) position without changing the way the encoding is handled. So there you have it. If certain people can accept a 2-pass/RG solution, all the better. But maybe some people aren't satisfied no matter what.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312509"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, IMO, a modification to the presets is a hack, not a fix.  A 2-pass solution would be a pretty well targeted fix.  With a preset modification you're going to fix some of the cases, but probably not all of them.  You're also going to end up being less efficient on more cases than not.

Whether it is more important to do it the proper way or to please Joe Average's misconceptions about the nature of the solution is something the MPC maintainers will have to decide I suppose.  Given the fact that MPC doesn't have a very large installed base though and probably never will, at least on the order of something like AAC or MP3, I don't think it's so important to worry about mass perception here.  Besides that, Joe Average probably doesn't even use Replaygain much, so he wouldn't even need to worry about this for the most part.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #78
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Now the ath_gain command would probably increase the quality,[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312495"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Probably?

Yes, probably. I'm not sure that most samples would benefit from this change. I quote Klemm's comment:
"For most pop titles, you can increase the ATH by 30 dB and still not notice anything."

And I can't say if the regression I've heard by comparing 1.01j to 1.15v could be solved by the ath_gain command. There's also this problem.

 

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #79
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"How come the superior MPC codec can't handle this big issue, like the other codecs can?!" [which fail at other samples MPC doesn't fail at].


With other encoders, I don't know any artifact as obvious as the one occuring with mpc in the described situation. Could you tell me which sample sound worse with Nero or iTunes AAC and Vorbis set with ~180 kbps preset than with LAME at 128 kbps?
I repeat: it's not because you're not concerned by it that the problem doesn't exist or must have to be described as something neglecting. I would consider this issue as a big one. And I'm totally amazed by the attempt of minimizing it, or reporting the fault on other tools (ReplayGain) or factors (damn listener's habits).


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and MPC would easily restore it's (top) position without changing the way the encoding is handled


Are you sure that MPC is still on top position? Have you tested all other encoders, which have improved a lot during three years, whereas MPC fully stagnate (or even regressed, at least in some conditions)?

The current problem of MPC is not to be sure that MPC is the 'champion' but to solve a problem. Worrying about the superiority of something (i.e. the relative position compared to competitors) is often a sign of zealotry. I'd rather see a HA.org administrator keeping his neutrality rather than spreading doubtful generalisations (recent one was that classical needs --extreme; now "MPC" on top) or closing threads like you did with mine. It's really compromizing in my opinion the strictness of this precious board. Working on a real solution, like Dibrom proposal, corresponds certainly more on the idea I have of people interesting by quality of a product more by its reputation (often exessive, and sometimes intentionally). It's not an attack, but I have to confess that I'm more and more perplexed by the kind of attitude you have toward one specific audio format.


EDIT: I'm talking about CiTay, not Dibrom.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #80
I think the concentration on ReplayGain is misleading. Frank's comments are fair enough, but maybe even less relevant to the issue at hand.

The simple point is that, when you have a very quiet track, or a large quiet part in any track, some listeners are going to increase the volume. I do it in the car all the time, and do it at home sometimes too.

Other codecs have a (relatively simple?) floating ath to compensate for this - why can't mpc? It may increase the bitrate a little, in which case there should be a switch to disable it. If it bloats the bitrate massively, then either we're talking about a rare case (several minutes of hissy analogue silence suddenly being encoded very accurately) or something is not acting as required.

Two-pass VBR encoding and/or ReplayGain as part of encoding seem like bad ideas to me. The only relevance ReplayGain has is that you might what something similar to parts of the RG algorithm to check the loudness at a given point and set the floating ath level.

btw, it's not fair to say that this problem is just with mpc - lame VBR encodes from very old versions (before the floating ath) could do similar things, depending on the switches used. My tests near the CD noise floor were trashed by a very old "HQ" VBR mode while they were encoded fine at 128kbps CBR.

If the lame floating ath works well with this issue (I haven't checked) then a similar concept shouldn't be too hard to port to mpc - as long as it didn't mess other things up.

Just my ideas - as usual, I'm not offering to code it!

Cheers,
David.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #81
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btw, it's not fair to say that this problem is just with mpc - lame VBR encodes from very old versions (before the floating ath) could do similar things, depending on the switches used.

I confirm that. I believe that I have precised that other modern encoders don't have this problem, at least most of them (haven't tried with iTunes AAC); that's why I talked about recent changes in LAME in ABR/CBR mode, and suggested that a similar tool could be implemented in MPC. Dibrom proposal is maybe more efficient.

P.S. Glad to see that I'm not alone to change the volume during playback

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #82
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The current problem of MPC is not to be sure that MPC is the 'champion' but to solve a problem. Worrying about the superiority of something (i.e. the relative position compared to competitors) is often a sign of zealotry.


I don't worry one bit about superiority. I didn't necessarily mean first position with top position, i meant it's on top up there, probably now with other codecs as well (why do i have to prove the opposite, we don't want to shift of the burden of proof).

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I'd rather see a HA.org administrator keeping his neutrality rather than spreading doubtful generalisations (recent one was that classical needs --extreme; now "MPC" on top) or closing threads like you did with mine.


This is an unfair comment. I clearly explained to you why i closed the thread, due to the very heated discussion at the time, and later i split the thread and notified you again about it. Futhermore, with --q6, i was giving an advice ("should consider") that was reasonable at the time (meaning i had enough reason to believe it would fix or greatly reduce the problem), i did not say that classical music generally needs --q6.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #83
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The simple point is that, when you have a very quiet track, or a large quiet part in any track, some listeners are going to increase the volume. I do it in the car all the time, and do it at home sometimes too.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312522"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, but looking back the original quote from guruboolez:

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The problem is confined to low-volume musical content, and is mainly audible when this content has to be listened to a higher playback volume. In other words, affected tracks must have low volume parts, and tracks with high dynamic are not really concerned (you can’t constantly push the volume on such material: your neighbors won’t appreciate it). The problem becomes really critical with low-volume tracks only. People who have to live with the consequences of the “loudness war” are certainly not used to encounter such tracks, but for classical fans, tracks that are replaygained at +10 dB, +20 dB and sometimes +30 dB are all except a rare thing (tracks with corrected gain beyond +25 dB are nevertheless very rare)


(emphasis added)

How many people are changing the volume by this much on the average case?  Probably not many, or maybe there's something else going because others (who presumably aren't changing the volume by this much) haven't reported much of this issue before.

A floating ath could help for some of this probably, but my main issue with implementing that in MPC is that I believe it will be very difficult to tune well enough that it can be expected to behave in a very reliable fashion.  It opens up another whole can of worms to deal with.

At any rate, if this issue is showing up mainly for users of replaygain, I don't see why a good solution wouldn't include information provided by replaygain at the encoding stage.  It would be a whole lot more predictable and much easier to tune by doing it this way.

Of course, 2-pass replaygain aware encoding wouldn't help people in a situation like what guruboolez describes who don't use replaygain.

So I think it's probably a tradeoff like this:

1. Use 2-pass encoding and probably get a lot more predictable results.  Implementation could be done much more quickly and would not require modification to the psymodel.  Downside -- doesn't help people who don't use replaygain (but they might not have this issue to begin with).  Potentially makes encoding process take longer.

2.  Use floating ath.  Works in all cases, but only as well as it is tuned.  Downside -- potentially doesn't work as well (may not catch all cases), potentially decreases efficiency.  Much more complex to implement.  Will require someone with enough knowledge of the psymodel to spend the time implementing.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #84
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I don't worry one bit about superiority. I didn't necessarily mean first position with top position

It's a malentendu. Sorry.

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This is an unfair comment. I clearly explained to you why i closed the thread, due to the very heated discussion at the time, and later i split the thread and notified you again about it.

May I recall you that I had to remind you the existence of the "splitting thread" tool, always used in similar situation, and well suited to not penalize the author of a constructed thread? It's a bit strange that once a negative feedback that concerns a specific format and based on listening test is posted on this board it has to be closed, and then opened again on a member suggestion. Heated discussion occurs really often on this board; are they closed? Or aren't usually trolling intervention thrown into the its rightplace: the dustbin?

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i did not say that classical music generally needs --q6.
It's seems that you've just imply it ("i guess that's a redundant advice for that clientele"). Just a feeling...

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #85
Also, guruboolez, i want to apologize to you again about the bad communication here. It is hard sometimes to strike the right note on a forum, when you're not discussing face to face (e.g. "How come the superior MPC codec" -> people mocking it, "oh-so-superior", not my claim). I think i did the best i could to take the problem that you discovered seriously, and i contacted Frank about it who now posts here again. I can't speak on Seed's behalf, but i want you to know that i had acknowledged the problem even though i probably don't have one track in my entire library that would suffer from it. Your effort is much appreciated and i hope the developers also put that effort into fixing such things.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #86
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May I recall you that I had to remind you the existence of the "splitting thread" tool, always used in similar situation, and well suited to not penalize the author of a constructed thread?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312546"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The thread was closed for 10 minutes max. Maybe someday you can join the HA moderation staff and we can discuss flamewar policies 

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #87
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Yes, but looking back the original quote from guruboolez:

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(you can’t constantly push the volume on such material: your neighbors won’t appreciate it).


(emphasis added)

My sentence implied specific listening conditions: appartment, and loudspeakers. The listening conditions are much less restrictive in a car or when listening on headphones.

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How many people are changing the volume by this much on the average case?  Probably not many, or maybe there's something else going because others (who presumably aren't changing the volume by this much) haven't reported much of this issue before.

May I recall you that few people are reporting feedback, even at 128 kbps. What do you expect with MPC at 180 kbps?
By the way, I could have reported this issue two years ago. But what's the point, when there are no developer to correct the problem. It's like talking to a wall. It could explain why people haven't reported the problem. Same happens with WMA9Pro: why should we report problem on this board? And if problems are not reported (WMA9Pro suffers from the same issue than MPC) it doesn't mean that there are no problems.


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At any rate, if this issue is showing up mainly for users of replaygain, I don't see why a good solution wouldn't include information provided by replaygain at the encoding stage.  It would be a whole lot more predictable and much easier to tune by doing it this way.

Not only for people using ReplayGain for God's sake! You just need to listen at higher volume that the one expected by the psymodel currently set with mpc --standard. It was recalled several time. ReplayGain is just a tool to automate this.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #88
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The thread was closed for 10 minutes max

Yes, ten minutes, because I've sent to you a private message within eight minutes.

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. Maybe someday you can join the HA moderation staff and we can discuss flamewar policies 

You've contacted me on this question on June, 18. My current situation (limited internet access, no IRQ chat) is not compatible with the way that HA.org moderation work.


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Also, guruboolez, i want to apologize to you again about the bad communication here. It is hard sometimes to strike the right note on a forum, when you're not discussing face to face (e.g. "How come the superior MPC codec" -> people mocking it, "oh-so-superior", not my claim). I think i did the best i could to take the problem that you discovered seriously, and i contacted Frank about it who now posts here again. I can't speak on Seed's behalf, but i want you to know that i had acknowledged the problem even though i probably don't have one track in my entire library that would suffer from it. Your effort is much appreciated and i hope the developers also put that effort into fixing such things.

You don't have to apologize, but if you insist, I'll accept them


What I'd like to see from current MPC team would be comparable reactions to those of other developers (AAC, LAME, WavPack, Vorbis). And not bashing a listening test because you're not happy with it (Seed) by inventing eccentric arguments (the Audigy aliasing which only affects MPC 1.15v was very original I must admit), not deviating the fault on other tools that are working correctly (Klemm), not minimizing the problems because it corresponds to a foreign situation, and not considering big artifacts to a sign of efficiency. I think that a more respectful attitude (for the user as well for the tester) would maybe help MPC to not rejoin the graveyard of audio innovations too quickly.

Yours 

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #89
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The thread was closed for 10 minutes max

Yes, ten minutes, because I've sent to you a private message within eight minutes.


This might be splitting hairs, but i intended to split the thread anyway, regardless of your message. 


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You don't have to apologize, but if you insist, I'll accept them


Thank you.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #90
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The simple point is that, when you have a very quiet track, or a large quiet part in any track, some listeners are going to increase the volume. I do it in the car all the time, and do it at home sometimes too.

Other codecs have a (relatively simple?) floating ath to compensate for this - why can't mpc? It may increase the bitrate a little, in which case there should be a switch to disable it. If it bloats the bitrate massively, then either we're talking about a rare case (several minutes of hissy analogue silence suddenly being encoded very accurately) or something is not acting as required.


Musepack has a relatively complex implemented floating ATH.
But for very small signals the ATH has a limit. The limit is set via ath_gain.
Near the limit (ATH ... ATH+25 dB) the behave of the ATH masking changes.
The NMR is reduced, the ATH adapts slowlier and a lot of things like this.

There are several assumptions about the maximum playback level.
(0 dB FS -> ~110 dB SPL). When the volume control is louder we
have problems when the signal is silent.


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Two-pass VBR encoding and/or ReplayGain as part of encoding seem like bad ideas to me. The only relevance ReplayGain has is that you might what something similar to parts of the RG algorithm to check the loudness at a given point and set the floating ath level.


Two-pass do not work, for instance for /dev/audio.
And we have still the problem, that we don't know anything about
the loudness of neighbour tracks (the whole album is silent or only one track,
in the first case it is more likely that someone turn up the volume control).

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If the lame floating ath works well with this issue (I haven't checked) then a similar concept shouldn't be too hard to port to mpc - as long as it didn't mess other things up.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312522"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Encoders with a simple floating ATH has advantages when the real playback
level is unknown. You can mute the input by 96 dB, feed it as 32 bit PCM
and get nearly the same result as the full level encoding. A replaygain
of +96 dB do not hurt in this case. Disadvantage is that you code also
pure noise with nearly the full bitrate (transform encoder may be increase
the bitrate because the transform do not compact the information).

When there's a problem with the ATH, use ath_gain. I will do some
checks concerning bitrates for Pop and classic Music depending on the
ATH gain setting.

When the default ATH should be corrected, how much should it be corrected.
Replaygain of Musepack allows boosting and attenuations up to 327 dB (!).
--  Frank Klemm

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #91
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ReplayGain ist *not* perfect at all, there's a long list of problems. Actually I use only album based ReplayGain, other modes have a lot of problems which may significantly reduce enjoy music.

Okay?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311995"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Honestly, that's the first time I see that reported here.


The are audible clicks between all tracks with signal between the tracks.
There are also sudden loudness jumps between tracks with signal between the tracks.

I can live with loudness difference within albums (especially when they are intended), but not with obviously artefacts with occure from time to time. I want to relax when I listen to music.
--  Frank Klemm

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #92
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I can live with loudness difference within albums (especially when they are intended), but not with obviously artefacts with occure from time to time. I want to relax when I listen to music.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312594"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I still don't really understand why album gain is not used in this situation.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #93
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I can live with loudness difference within albums (especially when they are intended), but not with obviously artefacts with occure from time to time. I want to relax when I listen to music.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312594"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I still don't really understand why album gain is not used in this situation.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312610"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Vice versa.
I always use album gain, but nearly never title gain.
--  Frank Klemm

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #94
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The are audible clicks between all tracks with signal between the tracks.
There are also sudden loudness jumps between tracks with signal between the tracks.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312594"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can confirm. Some time ago I encountered a soundtrack with horribly uneven volume among all tracks. An experiment with track gain before encoding resulted in clicks and said loudness jumps. At least the second issue would be granted, too, with normal (post-encoding) track gain.

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I will do some checks concerning bitrates for Pop and classic Music depending on the ATH gain setting.
Thank you for your effort.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #95
If you play nogap tracks out of sequence, you'll get clicking (even without ReplayGain). To avoid this, you should cross fade the tracks, or pay a DJ to do it for you!

If you play nogap tracks in sequence, you'll get clicking only when using ReplayGain in Track mode. In this case, you could also avoid clicks by using a simple cross fade as above, but that overlaps the tracks and actually loses a bit of audio.

A neater solution is to join the tracks properly (butted together as normal) while changing the ReplayGain value smoothly around the track transition. So it sounds like the volume control is being carefully adjusted from one ReplayGain value to the other. No click. The ideal time over which to make this change is a subjective judgement, and difficult to automate.

Also, where a track has a gap (like on most albums), it makes no sense to change ReplayGain smoothly between tracks, as this will cause some tracks to fade up or down annoyingly for no reason.

The decision to change abruptly or smoothly could be automated by checking if the track fades to near silence, or continues without a gap.


That looks like a nice project for someone! It's not something most people might use, but some would. It would be a real pain if it went wrong!

Cheers,
David.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #96
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A neater solution is to join the tracks properly (butted together as normal) while changing the ReplayGain value smoothly around the track transition. So it sounds like the volume control is being carefully adjusted from one ReplayGain value to the other. No click. The ideal time over which to make this change is a subjective judgement, and difficult to automate.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312744"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


So this would be implemented as a 'Replaygain DSP' then? You could have an adjustable adjustment period which smoothly adjusted from 1 replaygain value to another, but with no crossfade?

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #97
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That looks like a nice project for someone! It's not something most people might use, but some would. It would be a real pain if it went wrong![a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312744"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And it's certainly more elegant than the DSP/3rd RG-mode solution Klemm suggested.
"To understand me, you'll have to swallow a world." Or maybe your words.

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #98
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Quote
The are audible clicks between all tracks with signal between the tracks.
There are also sudden loudness jumps between tracks with signal between the tracks.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312594"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can confirm. Some time ago I encountered a soundtrack with horribly uneven volume among all tracks. An experiment with track gain before encoding resulted in clicks and said loudness jumps. At least the second issue would be granted, too, with normal (post-encoding) track gain.

Quote
I will do some checks concerning bitrates for Pop and classic Music depending on the ATH gain setting.
Thank you for your effort.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312720"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Nightwish -- Tales from the Elvenpath -- Dead Boy's Poem
Code: [Select]
 PCM size File size  Ratio  kbps    Duration  Param Frequency  Name
  72.088     5.936          116    6:48.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  +40.mpc
  72.088     7.017          137    6:48.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  +30.mpc
  72.088     7.797  9.246   153    6:48.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  +20.mpc
  72.088     8.388  8.594   164    6:48.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  +10.mpc
  72.088     8.821  8.172   173    6:48.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  0.mpc
  72.088     9.142  7.885   179    6:48.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  -10.mpc
  72.088     9.426  7.648   185    6:48.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  -20.mpc
  72.088     9.660  7.462   189    6:48.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  -30.mpc
  72.088     9.852  7.317   193    6:48.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  -40.mpc
 648.799    76.042  8.532   165   61:18.000                   --- 9 files ---

RG -8.2 dB

80/81 (CD 1) (1981) -- Pat Metheny/Charlie Haden -- Two Folk Songs: 1st (Pat Metheny)%3B 2nd (Charlie Haden)
Code: [Select]
 PCM size File size  Ratio  kbps    Duration  Param Frequency  Name
 220.970    16.638          106   20:52.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  +40.mpc
 220.970    20.651          132   20:52.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  +30.mpc
 220.970    23.596  9.364   151   20:52.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  +20.mpc
 220.970    25.983  8.504   166   20:52.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  +10.mpc
 220.970    27.951  7.906   179   20:52.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  0.mpc
 220.970    29.363  7.525   188   20:52.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  -10.mpc
 220.970    30.373  7.275   194   20:52.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  -20.mpc
 220.970    31.172  7.089   199   20:52.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  -30.mpc
 220.970    31.835  6.941   203   20:52.667  (2x16 44100 Hz)  -40.mpc
1988.733   237.565  8.371   169  187:54.000                   --- 9 files ---

RG +2.2 dB

Debussy -- Syrincs
Code: [Select]
Damn, where is this nice CD

RG +10.3 dB
--  Frank Klemm

MPC VBR flaws (low volume & ringing)

Reply #99
I made a similar comparison, using short samples divided in 2 groups: one for classical (150 samples, links if needed here) and a smaller one for various music.

Code: [Select]
									
+40 +30 +20 +10 default -10 -20 -30 -40
41_30sec  144 175 199 214 223 230 236 241 245
ATrain    104 146 171 187 198 206 213 219 223
BigYellow 143 163 176 185 192 197 202 206 210
Blackwater 111 134 153 171 185 194 201 207 212
bodyheat  110 133 149 161 171 180 187 192 195
chanchan  130 154 171 182 191 198 204 209 214
DaFunk    122 147 166 179 188 195 201 206 210
death2    86 108 129 155 185 204 216 224 230
EnolaGay  141 165 180 189 196 202 205 208 212
experienci 132 152 165 174 180 186 190 194 197
FloorEssen 147 168 184 196 206 213 218 222 226
getiton  101 126 146 163 176 187 196 203 208
gone      114 134 151 167 178 186 193 198 202
Illinois  127 163 188 208 218 226 233 239 244
ItCouldBeS 85 97 104 109 112 115 117 118 121
kraftwerk 80 106 156 191 209 220 228 233 238
Layla    143 166 183 197 206 213 219 224 228
Leahy    144 168 183 193 201 208 213 217 221
LifeShatte 121 137 149 158 165 172 178 181 185
Mama      115 129 139 146 152 157 161 165 167
MidnightVo 114 145 169 184 195 203 210 214 219
mybloodrus 130 155 175 191 203 212 219 225 230
NewYorkCit 140 156 166 175 181 188 192 196 200
OrdinaryWo 143 164 178 189 197 203 209 213 216
Quizas    115 141 162 177 187 195 201 207 210
rosemary  104 129 148 162 173 181 188 192 197
Scars    128 149 164 176 185 193 199 203 207
SinceAlway 133 154 168 178 187 194 199 204 208
thear1    134 150 163 172 179 187 192 196 199
TheSource 105 134 155 168 176 182 186 190 192
TomsDiner 83 110 133 150 163 171 177 182 187
trust    120 143 159 171 180 188 194 199 204
Twelve    134 156 172 183 192 200 206 211 216
velvet    134 169 195 212 223 231 237 241 244
Waiting  129 153 171 184 194 201 208 213 218

AVERAGE 121,31 145,11 163,43 177,06 187,06 194,80 200,80 205,49 209,57
+40 +30 +20 +10 default -10 -20 -30 -40

A01_etchin 107 140 167 185 198 209 218 224 230
A02_metamo 124 156 178 191 200 206 211 214 217
A03_emese 194 211 227 242 255 265 275 281 284
A04_pierre 131 156 176 189 199 206 211 215 219
A05_tribou 141 162 176 185 190 194 197 199 201
E01_MODERN 117 147 168 185 198 210 219 225 232
E02_MODERN 87 115 143 168 187 203 214 221 228
E03_MODERN 99 126 152 180 197 208 216 223 228
E04_MODERN 135 169 190 205 214 221 226 230 235
E05_MODERN 99 132 159 175 186 195 203 210 214
E06_MODERN 126 157 180 197 207 216 223 229 234
E07_MODERN 104 135 168 193 209 220 228 234 240
E08_MODERN 119 144 162 173 181 187 193 198 203
E09_MODERN 98 126 154 178 196 209 220 227 234
E10_MODERN 88 118 148 170 185 195 203 209 214
E11_MODERN 98 146 178 198 212 221 228 234 239
E12_MODERN 91 120 145 166 183 198 209 217 222
E13_MODERN 117 154 181 200 213 223 233 241 247
E14_MODERN 102 134 163 183 199 210 219 225 230
E15_MODERN 91 115 145 174 197 216 228 238 245
E16_MODERN 104 136 165 192 210 222 230 237 243
E17_MODERN 82 115 145 171 189 202 210 216 223
E18_MODERN 96 124 150 171 188 200 209 215 220
E19_MODERN 115 150 177 196 210 220 227 233 238
E20_MODERN 42 72 101 131 169 199 210 219 227
E21_MODERN 66 95 124 148 166 179 188 195 201
E22_MODERN 73 100 135 169 188 201 209 216 221
E23_MODERN 119 146 167 182 194 203 211 217 221
E24_MODERN 89 124 158 183 199 211 220 227 233
E25_MODERN 128 151 168 180 189 196 202 206 210
E26_MODERN 92 119 143 164 181 194 203 210 215
E27_MODERN 70 92 112 136 166 187 197 204 213
E28_MODERN 107 129 147 160 172 182 189 196 201
E29_MODERN 128 155 173 186 196 204 212 219 224
E30_MODERN 117 139 157 171 183 191 199 205 209
E31_PERIOD 164 188 203 213 221 227 232 237 241
E32_PERIOD 151 179 199 213 224 232 240 246 250
E33_PERIOD 128 156 180 197 209 217 223 229 235
E34_PERIOD 57 81 113 145 170 189 202 210 217
E35_PERIOD 102 152 188 211 226 237 245 252 258
E36_PERIOD 172 202 220 232 239 244 249 252 255
E37_PERIOD 118 154 182 202 216 226 233 239 244
E38_PERIOD 101 136 165 185 201 212 220 227 231
E39_PERIOD 71 105 137 165 187 203 217 226 233
E40_PERIOD 105 133 158 177 192 203 212 219 225
E41_PERIOD 115 161 196 217 230 239 247 254 258
E42_PERIOD 129 168 198 219 232 242 251 259 264
E43_PERIOD 124 159 185 203 216 226 234 241 247
E44_PERIOD 56 91 130 169 194 209 219 227 233
E45_PERIOD 152 182 201 214 223 230 236 241 246
E46_PERIOD 78 114 147 173 191 204 214 221 227
E47_PERIOD 103 137 166 187 203 215 224 231 236
E48_PERIOD 134 170 196 213 224 233 239 244 248
E49_PERIOD 91 122 149 171 187 199 208 215 220
E50_PERIOD 137 167 189 205 216 226 233 239 244
E51_PERIOD 112 143 169 187 200 209 217 223 228
E52_PERIOD 131 162 184 199 211 220 226 232 236
E53_PERIOD 101 136 167 192 208 218 225 232 238
E54_PERIOD 105 133 156 172 184 193 200 205 210
E55_PERIOD 113 146 172 190 203 212 220 226 230
E56_PERIOD 148 167 182 194 203 210 216 221 225
E57_PERIOD 137 160 176 187 196 204 211 216 220
E58_PERIOD 128 148 162 173 183 191 197 201 204
E59_PERIOD 141 174 194 208 218 226 233 237 242
E60_PERIOD 100 126 147 166 183 195 203 210 215
S01_BOW_Ce 88 123 151 170 183 191 197 202 206
S02_BOW_Ce 46 64 84 110 139 170 187 197 206
S03_BOW_Ce 54 76 105 144 178 204 219 228 236
S04_BOW_Er 101 141 175 198 212 223 231 238 244
S05_BOW_Ga 102 155 198 223 237 246 254 260 265
S06_BOW_Vi 106 141 175 200 217 228 236 243 248
S07_BOW_Vi 105 139 172 197 214 225 232 238 243
S08_BOW_Vi 122 157 184 203 216 224 231 236 240
S09_BOW_Vi 89 137 188 221 240 252 260 266 271
S10_KEYBOA 82 124 156 181 196 206 215 221 227
S11_KEYBOA 137 181 210 230 244 254 263 271 276
S12_KEYBOA 167 204 226 242 253 262 270 276 280
S13_KEYBOA 174 194 207 217 224 231 236 241 245
S14_KEYBOA 147 165 178 188 196 204 209 214 218
S15_KEYBOA 108 139 171 198 210 219 224 229 233
S16_KEYBOA 158 201 231 251 264 273 281 288 292
S17_KEYBOA 92 130 165 189 204 215 222 229 234
S18_KEYBOA 61 88 122 164 189 205 216 224 230
S19_KEYBOA 125 165 198 226 241 251 260 266 271
S20_KEYBOA 102 127 154 176 193 205 213 220 226
S21_KEYBOA 95 145 186 207 219 228 233 241 246
S22_KEYBOA 62 110 163 206 237 257 267 277 283
S23_KEYBOA 72 95 124 156 185 199 207 214 220
S24_KEYBOA 85 108 128 146 163 185 200 209 217
S25_KEYBOA 34 49 70 129 168 187 196 205 210
S26_KEYBOA 31 45 59 72 102 157 188 206 215
S27_KEYBOA 94 119 142 164 181 198 208 215 221
S28_KEYBOA 72 90 106 125 152 188 208 219 228
S29_KEYBOA 74 98 123 150 174 192 203 212 219
S30_OTHERS 121 178 233 272 300 317 328 338 345
S31_OTHERS 59 88 118 145 167 188 204 216 224
S32_OTHERS 123 168 205 231 252 266 276 283 288
S33_OTHERS 73 123 170 203 223 235 243 249 253
S34_OTHERS 80 122 168 205 230 245 254 261 267
S35_OTHERS 100 126 148 164 178 188 196 202 207
S36_OTHERS 71 100 129 158 185 206 221 231 240
S37_OTHERS 46 59 79 114 159 188 206 218 225
S38_PINCH_ 74 98 126 160 185 202 213 222 228
S39_PINCH_ 54 74 97 128 166 191 205 215 222
S40_PINCH_ 79 111 154 186 205 217 226 233 239
S41_PINCH_ 44 68 100 139 171 193 205 213 221
S42_PINCH_ 52 80 112 150 181 200 212 219 226
S43_PINCH_ 80 110 143 171 194 205 215 223 229
S44_WIND_B 131 179 219 249 269 281 293 301 306
S45_WIND_B 72 102 137 173 203 223 236 246 254
S46_WIND_C 102 138 172 201 226 240 249 256 261
S47_WIND_C 66 95 127 165 204 226 240 249 256
S48_WIND_C 78 105 137 176 210 233 246 253 260
S49_WIND_F 63 95 128 159 186 206 218 228 234
S50_WIND_F 102 145 183 207 224 234 241 246 251
S51_WIND_F 76 106 142 173 194 207 215 222 227
S52_WIND_O 66 90 119 149 176 193 203 211 218
S53_WIND_S 93 129 164 192 218 248 266 276 283
S54_WIND_T 75 103 129 156 184 216 232 241 250
S55_WIND_T 102 128 149 168 186 210 222 230 237
V01_CHORUS 99 134 159 176 189 198 206 212 217
V02_CHORUS 92 124 149 168 182 193 201 207 212
V03_CHORUS 25 42 62 82 109 168 205 224 236
V04_CHORUS 137 159 175 186 195 203 209 214 219
V05_CHORUS 100 130 155 174 188 199 207 214 219
V06_CHORUS 99 129 152 168 179 188 195 201 206
V07_CHORUS 91 117 140 160 174 185 192 200 205
V08_CHORUS 124 150 169 183 194 202 210 215 219
V09_DUET_F 89 118 145 165 181 192 202 210 216
V10_DUET_M 85 115 146 175 191 201 207 214 220
V11_DUET_S 51 76 103 131 158 174 186 193 200
V12_PLAINC 110 140 166 186 199 209 216 223 227
V13_PLAINC 105 130 151 167 178 186 193 198 201
V14_PLAINC 94 119 143 164 178 189 197 205 211
V15_PLAINC 103 138 163 181 193 205 215 224 231
V16_PLAINC 64 93 125 158 185 201 212 220 226
V17_PLAINC 56 77 106 146 182 202 217 226 234
V18_SOLOIS 79 111 144 173 192 205 214 222 229
V19_SOLOIS 47 75 118 161 182 196 203 211 216
V20_SOLOIS 119 150 174 193 206 216 224 231 236
V21_SOLOIS 87 110 131 152 167 177 185 193 200
V22_SOLOIS 83 113 143 169 188 201 210 217 222
V23_SOLOIS 94 125 157 185 204 217 226 234 240
V24_SOLOIS 123 157 181 197 209 218 225 231 237
V25_SOLOIS 73 108 148 183 201 213 221 228 233
V26_SOLOIS 85 115 140 163 182 195 206 216 223
V27_SOLOIS 100 132 155 172 184 193 201 207 212
V28_SOLOIS 75 102 137 170 193 207 218 227 234
V29_SOLOIS 96 124 146 166 178 186 194 200 205
V30_SOLOIS 82 111 140 165 184 197 207 215 221

98,23 128,77 156,37 179,68 197,52 210,98 220,34 227,47 233,09

+40 +30 +20 +10 default -10 -20 -30 -40


SUMMARY:

Code: [Select]

ath_gain +40 +30 +20 +10 default -10 -20 -30 -40


various music 121 145 163 177 187 195 201 205 210
classical music 98 129 156 180 198 211 220 227 233

The bitrate range is much wider with classical (98 -> 227) than with other samples (121 -> 210 kbps).
A simple ath_gain -10 with classical lead to the same average value than --ath_gain -40 with the second group!

Also take a look on V03 and S26.