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What is your stance on Replaygain support in Vorbis?
post May 15 2002, 21:30
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Do you believe it's better to store the data in the actual Vorbis tags, where it's more practical, easier to implement, and more likely to gain widespread support?

Or do you believe that it's better to have each individual player handle replaygain itself because it's "The Right Thing", because having the data in the vorbis tags is too much of a kludge, and because it's not the responsibility or goal of Vorbis to deal with this?
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post May 16 2002, 02:56
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Quoth Dibrom:

"The biggest problem I see here with this situation, and I've seen it happen in a few other Opensource projects I've been involved with, is that the stubbornness and principles of the developers end up hurting the users and end up not really solving anything."

Well, remember that I'm here in an effort to ascertain if there's something we can do about it. I'm really not interested in debating the reasons why the principles are necessary or not important, I'm interested in learning about alternative solutions. I'm interested in a way to make this work out for the best. Imagine if we just did exactly what people wanted, when they wanted it, every single time they wanted it, damn the consequences? Maybe we'd solve more problems, but we'd likely create a lot more than we started with.

"In my opinion, if the users are asking for something and there is no valid reason not to support it other than some sort of principle, then in the end, that principle should give way to their demands."

I agree with you, but only when the demands of the well-meaning users are discussed and all the alternatives are on the table. Remember, I'm on your side. I like replaygain, and I think it's useful. If you're a big replaygain fan, don't you want to see it implemented in the best possible way? I do. That's why I'm taking the time to see what's possible.

"Vorbis is supposed to be a user oriented project, no? Looking at the results of the poll thus far, it seems fairly clear where most users stand on this issue, doesn't it?"

No, it doesn't. A poll on Hydrogen Audio is not a representative sampling of everyone who uses Vorbis. Imagine if the poll weren't about embedding replaygain tags into Vorbis. If it were to ask if I should wear a suit made of bananas in an effort to make Vorbis more attractive, and everyone voted for the banana suit, would I then be forced to wear a banana suit by mob rule?

Just because a million people think it's a good idea, doesn't mean it couldn't do with more discussion and the presentation of alternatives. Contrary to popular opinion, mob rule does not make for good design.

"Having said that, I'm all for an alternative solution. That is, if it is actually workable, practical, and is likely to be widely implemented. The current proposal for shifting the burden off onto the players is clearly unrealistic and far too much of an idealist goal to be practical. I have a hard time seeing another way of solving this situation without imbedding the replaygain data in the vorbis files themselves. Perhaps I'm missing something. At any rate, I'm still listening..."

Many moons ago, the idea of a patent and license-free alternative to mp3 was considered 'clearly unrealistic' and 'far too much of an idealist goal to be practical.' Please remember that at the player level, the current proposition remains the same; You still need to convince people that make players that they need to add this functionality. Nearly everything else pales in comparison to this fact.

"This seems to indicate to me that part of the problem behind replaygain in vorbis (which Monty seemed to express by saying that "Replaygain is still trying to expand it's fiefdom") isn't so much because of a technical or practical issue at all, but rather because some core people view this as an outside idea, not developled by them, that is somehow encroaching upon their territory and "tainting" the project. I certainly hope that's not the case, because of it is, that would be most unfortunate :/"

I think that if there is any of that kind of thought process going on, it's likely because Monty doesn't take well to 'do this right now without thinking of the consequences' ultimata. Do you? See above for the dangers of implementing features without discussing them first. I can't say as I blame him. Monty is just as interested in the gain issue as I am, but he feels that the current proposition is not the best implementation.

So, all that being said, I'm still very much listening, and I'm here in good faith to support all the people that support us and want to see us succeed. Let's put an end to the finger-pointing and name-calling, and work something out - And I mean that as much for my own people as everyone else.

Still listening...

Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation
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Posts in this topic
- Dibrom   What is your stance on Replaygain support in Vorbis?   May 15 2002, 21:30
- - rc55   I'd say vote for the Vorbis tag solution. If anyth...   May 15 2002, 22:05
- - JohnV   [01:36] <Paradox> There is a fundamental dif...   May 15 2002, 23:45
- - rjamorim   QUOTE Originally posted by JohnV Paradox is the C...   May 15 2002, 23:51
- - john33   Seems to me that this guy is a true 'anal retentiv...   May 16 2002, 00:50
- - Emmett_v2   Let me make a few things clear. First off, I've r...   May 16 2002, 00:59
- - MaTTeR   Well considering he is backing up the opinion of h...   May 16 2002, 01:07
- - Case   The values could be stored in header in similar wa...   May 16 2002, 01:14
- - JohnV   Ok people, please give proper reasons why rg shoul...   May 16 2002, 01:19
- - Dibrom   The biggest problem I see here with this situation...   May 16 2002, 02:06
- - rjamorim   QUOTE Originally posted by Dibrom some core peopl...   May 16 2002, 02:16
- - Dibrom   Btw, to everyone in this thread, lets try to keep ...   May 16 2002, 02:18
- - Dibrom   QUOTE Originally posted by rjamorim Hummm... like...   May 16 2002, 02:48
- - rjamorim   Just to clarify (Sorry for keeping OT) I had offe...   May 16 2002, 02:53
- - Emmett_v2   Quoth Dibrom: "The biggest problem I see here wit...   May 16 2002, 02:56
- - Dibrom   QUOTE Originally posted by Emmettfish Well, remem...   May 16 2002, 03:29
- - krsna77   Ok, before I start in, please understand that I am...   May 16 2002, 06:56
- - Dibrom   Actually, this metadata type stuff was discussed v...   May 16 2002, 07:47
- - Lear   QUOTE Originally posted by Emmettfish Many moons...   May 16 2002, 08:03
- - damjang   I think that ReplayGain data should be implemented...   May 16 2002, 08:19
- - YinYang   QUOTE Originally posted by Dibrom Actually, this ...   May 16 2002, 09:24
- - Garf   QUOTE Originally posted by Emmettfish On the oth...   May 16 2002, 19:00
- - Garf   QUOTE Originally posted by Case The values could ...   May 16 2002, 19:01
- - Emanuel   Just an idea, wich I realize might take some time ...   May 16 2002, 19:04
- - Garf   QUOTE Originally posted by Dibrom Actually, this ...   May 16 2002, 19:05
- - Garf   I see three problem areas right now: a) Store dat...   May 16 2002, 19:34
- - Randum   Really I'm not clear on what Emmett's definition o...   May 16 2002, 21:44
- - Emmett_v2   Quoth Randum: "Really I'm not clear on what Emmet...   May 17 2002, 02:40
- - Randum   QUOTE Originally posted by Emmettfish Quoth Randu...   May 17 2002, 03:13
- - 2Bdecided   I'm glad Radium picked up on this fine point! The...   May 17 2002, 10:59
- - 2Bdecided   I know it's been kindly said several times in the ...   May 17 2002, 14:13
- - tw101   I'm late to this discussion, for I need to study f...   May 18 2002, 14:37
- - Garf   QUOTE Originally posted by tw101 Question 1: If...   May 18 2002, 16:49
- - Lear   QUOTE Originally posted by tw101 I don't think I ...   May 18 2002, 18:29
- - tw101   QUOTE Originally posted by Lear That's what we'...   May 19 2002, 15:11
- - Garf   QUOTE Originally posted by tw101 What puzzled me...   May 19 2002, 15:33
- - tw101   QUOTE Originally posted by Garf There is no need ...   May 19 2002, 15:44
- - Garf   QUOTE Originally posted by tw101 Ok, but how muc...   May 19 2002, 16:12
- - tw101   QUOTE Originally posted by Garf [b]This is the on...   May 20 2002, 09:27
- - 2Bdecided   I didn't think my opinion would interest anyone......   May 20 2002, 11:29
- - tw101   QUOTE Originally posted by 2Bdecided I didn't thi...   May 20 2002, 12:32
- - 2Bdecided   tw101, Don't worry - my sarcastic comment wasn't ...   May 20 2002, 13:18
- - Garf   QUOTE Originally posted by tw101 <backing awa...   May 20 2002, 18:23
- - Garf   QUOTE Originally posted by 2Bdecided But no one ...   May 20 2002, 18:24
- - Dibrom   QUOTE Originally posted by Garf You are right - ...   May 20 2002, 21:39
- - Garf   QUOTE Originally posted by Dibrom To clarify, of...   May 21 2002, 19:13
- - JohnV   Well Garf, to tell you the truth I'd be very surpr...   May 21 2002, 21:42
- - Garf   QUOTE Originally posted by JohnV All in all, the...   May 22 2002, 19:33

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