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Topic: My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :) (Read 47681 times) previous topic - next topic
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My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #26 –
Quote
I've uploaded an electronic sample which sounds very metallic after encoding with QK3.1.
I can hear a difference up to -q 5 without any ABXing.
But difference is much smaller than with Oggenc 1.01


http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=187389

hmm...Each time I try to download that sample, I get a 0 kB flac file    Can you try and upload it again?

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #28 –
Quote
Sorry,
but uploads not seem to be working properly in my network.
I've uploaded it again from my server (Mandrake 9.2) and it works.  

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=187398

Yup, I managed to get it now.  Thanks.

So is this metallic sound you speak of also present in 1.0.1?

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #29 –
Here's my quick test of QK b3.1. I felt strange stereo impression with QK b3.1 on these two samples, but I could not find a killer sample. I think QKb3.1 improves HF boost. On 8823 sample, it turned the hi-hat sound down much. 

Quote
ABC/HR Version 0.9b, 30 August 2002
Testname: 8823

1R = C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4mtb2.wav
2R = C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4qk31.wav
3L = C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4atb1.wav
4R = C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:
Hard to rank sample 3 and 4.
---------------------------------------
1R File: C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4mtb2.wav
1R Rating: 4.0
1R Comment: I could abx this sample but it was acceptable.
---------------------------------------
2R File: C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4qk31.wav
2R Rating: 3.0
2R Comment: Strange to me. It lowers the volume of hi-hat shots more than the original. It also narrowens stereo image to center.
---------------------------------------
3L File: C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4atb1.wav
3L Rating: 2.5
3L Comment: Hiss of hi-hat shot.
---------------------------------------
4R File: C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4.wav
4R Rating: 2.0
4R Comment: Pre-echo of snare, tom and cymbal drum shots. Much background noise.
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:
Original vs C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4mtb2.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016
Original vs C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4qk31.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016
Original vs C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4atb1.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016
Original vs C:\test\test\8823\8823-q4.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016

Quote
ABC/HR Version 0.9b, 30 August 2002
Testname: HongKong GP

1L = C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4mtb2.wav
2L = C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4.wav
3L = C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4qk31.wav
4R = C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4atb1.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:
Hard to rank sample 2 and 4. I failed to abx sample 1.
---------------------------------------
2L File: C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4.wav
2L Rating: 2.5
2L Comment: Tambourine's pre-echo.
---------------------------------------
3L File: C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4qk31.wav
3L Rating: 4.0
3L Comment: Centered stereo image?
---------------------------------------
4R File: C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4atb1.wav
4R Rating: 2.0
4R Comment: Tambourine's pre-echo.
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:
Original vs C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4mtb2.wav
    4 out of 10, pval = 0.828
Original vs C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016
Original vs C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4qk31.wav
    10 out of 12, pval = 0.019
Original vs C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4atb1.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016

It's cool to hack the source code, QuantumKnot. 

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #30 –
Quote
But difference is much smaller than with Oggenc 1.01

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #31 –
Quote
Yup, I managed to get it now. Thanks.

So is this metallic sound you speak of also present in 1.0.1?


1.01 is really worse.
QK3.1 -q 4 performs better than 1.01 -q 6 on this sample!

But the sound reminds me of wma and the stereo image seems to be widespread.

sorry for my bad english 

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #32 –
Quote
Here's my quick test of QK b3.1. I felt strange stereo impression with QK b3.1 on these two samples, but I could not find a killer sample. I think QKb3.1 improves HF boost. On 8823 sample, it turned the hi-hat sound down much. 


Ah, that is something that I feared.  I also heard this during tuning (I used 8823 sample and 41_30sec to tune)  The compensation I made is very arbitrary and I had to continually tweak it to ensure a balance....so that the hi-hat was not too high and not too low.  Looks like it is too low.

The stereo imaging problems are not unusual for the type of change I made.  Hopefully it is fixable

Quote
It's cool to hack the source code, QuantumKnot. 


Yeah, I gave up fiddling with those psych_44.h values.  Couldn't do much with them to verify my hypothesis about point stereo.

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #33 –
Quote
Quote

Yup, I managed to get it now. Thanks.

So is this metallic sound you speak of also present in 1.0.1?


1.01 is really worse.
QK3.1 -q 4 performs better than 1.01 -q 6 on this sample!

But the sound reminds me of wma and the stereo image seems to be widespread.

sorry for my bad english 

Ah ok.  I needed to check this in order to work out whether my hack was creating this new problem or whether it was always there in the beginning so I'm innocent.  As is always the case, I end up breaking more than I can fix.

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #34 –
Quote
As is always the case, I end up breaking more than I can fix.

These results sound to me like you have fixed more than you have broken .  I will do some testing on these Vorbis versions once I have finished the AAC test.

edit:  typo
gentoo ~amd64 + layman | ncmpcpp/mpd | wavpack + vorbis + lame

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #35 –
Quote
Quote
As is always the case, I end up breaking more than I can fix.

These results sound to me like you have fixed more than you have broken .  I will do some testing on these Vorbis versions once I have finished the AAC test.

edit:  typo

Many thanks.

I've got some new ideas on how to improve it, though it could mean an increase in the bitrate.  In which case, I might have to downtune or remove my pre-echo tunings.  We'll see.

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #36 –
I've tried to address the problems with stereo imaging and excessive suppression of the hi-hat that nyaochi reported in his listening tests in beta 3.2 which can be downloaded from:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=187669

These are mainly experimental changes which I've found through listening tests, to improve the problems with beta 3.1.  It uses a less aggressive linear compensation to prevent excessive suppression of the hi-hat.  Also, my suspicion is that this compensation has 'unmasked' the mono effect of point stereo, which explains why the stereo image is collapsing into the centre (which is an undesirable of point stereo).  To counter this, I've implemented a 'partial point stereo' where I retain some angle information (diffuse sounds/reverberations) in the compensated frequencies.  Now the hi-hat isn't so 'centered' anymore though perhaps it might be a bit too diffuse? 

We'll see how it goes.  The more I spend time doing this, the more I realise this is only a band-aid solution and doesn't fix the root of the problem, which I suspect has little to do with point stereo....

I also want to offer my sincere thanks to those who are willing to download these test binaries and spend time testing them. I sometimes feel guilty releasing test binaries so frequently as I realise listening tests are very time consuming.  I can assure you I do my best in testing quality before releasing, but my ears are not so good.  The feedback has been invaluable and I am learning heaps.

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #37 –
On my samples, I couldn't find any stereo imaging problems with my headphones(Sennheiser HD580). Nevertheless, I still did 2 tests to detect other artifacts, so I believe "better than nothing".  The one is adopted as a killer sample,(2harps) and the other is cropped from my favourite song.
Golden Vorbis test
2harps Vorbis test

The samples are found at usual place.

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #38 –
Damn, you created a monster ! 
The sound is completely different (especially the hi-hats) to b3.1 and mostly transparent at -q 4.

But there is a big bug in -q 2 
Oggenc QK 3.2 adds very strange tones to the material

Hope you'll fix that


bye

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #39 –
Awesome. Now merge that with GT3B1 and you have pre-echo improvements from Q2 all the way into the high quality settings

Just curious, if you can tune this codec, and Garf can tune this codec, why can't Xiph tune this codec? No interest in doing so I imagine, or else they would have incorporated Garf's tunings.

Thanks for your effort with this.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #40 –
Quote
On my samples, I couldn't find any stereo imaging problems with my headphones(Sennheiser HD580). Nevertheless, I still did 2 tests to detect other artifacts, so I believe "better than nothing".  The one is adopted as a killer sample,(2harps) and the other is cropped from my favourite song.
Golden Vorbis test
2harps Vorbis test


Luckily pre-echo is something that can be fixed without too much trouble.  But how beta 3.2 performs on classical samples is an uncertainly as my ears aren't that good with this genre though last night, I tried it on guruboolez's violin sample and it seems to sound the same (ie. noisy) as 1.0.1    I suspect that noise is different to the HF boost which some of us are hearing on hi-hats and cymbals. *shrugs*

I'll do some pre-echo tuning based on the 2harps sample.  Many thanks.

Quote
But there is a big bug in -q 2 
Oggenc QK 3.2 adds very strange tones to the material

Hope you'll fix that


I'll address the other quality levels soon.  At present, I've only been focusing on -q 4 => the 128 kbps range has great symbolic importance.

EDIT:  After I listened to q 2 and 3, it does sound pretty nasty.  I'll be right on it.

Quote
Awesome. Now merge that with GT3B1 and you have pre-echo improvements from Q2 all the way into the high quality settings


Not only will there be pre-echo improvement....it should theoretically remove HF boost in GT3b1 as well.

Quote
Just curious, if you can tune this codec, and Garf can tune this codec, why can't Xiph tune this codec? No interest in doing so I imagine, or else they would have incorporated Garf's tunings.


The only person at Xiph who can make major improvements to Vorbis is Monty.  However, there are a bunch of other projects that he has to do, so Vorbis sits in his To-Do tray along with other things...kinda like round-robin scheduling.  Thankfully Monty is available on IRC sometimes and he very kindly answered a few questions I had about lossless stereo and most importantly, point stereo.

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #41 –
UPDATE:  The original beta 3.2 binary has a serious bug which causes spurious tones to appear at q < 4.  This is not a bug in the tuning but rather a build problem caused by Visual Studio.NET. 

I've replaced the buggy binary with another one (compiled using Visual C++ 6) which does not have this problem.  From preliminary listening tests, HF boost seems lower in q 0,1,2,3 as well so things look good for now. 

Please replace your previous 3.2 binary with the corrected one.  Just go and download oggencqk32.exe again at:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=187669

Thanks.

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #42 –
Quote
This is not a bug in the tuning but rather a build problem caused by Visual Studio.NET.

Interesting.  Any more details on that? I have to say that I always VC6 rather than 7 simply because 7 has never shown itself to have any advantage for my purposes. And, of course, 6 is much more mature!! 

It's kind of strange that certain people around here seem to have a reverence for VC6 as providing an essentially 'bug free' environment, certainly when compared with the Intel compilers. The reason I say this is odd is that one thing you can certainly say about M$ is that they certainly can't be accused of having a reputation for 'bug free' software releases. Anyone remember the release of Word 6? It had well over 1,000 known and documented bugs at the date of release!!

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #43 –
Quote
Quote
This is not a bug in the tuning but rather a build problem caused by Visual Studio.NET.

Interesting.  Any more details on that?

I found the problem.  I noticed beta 3.1 wasn't exhibiting this sort of behaviour which was surprising since it was compiled using Visual Studio.NET as well.  Eventually I traced it down to stupidity of mine.  In one of my 'if' statements, I was multiplying an int with a float (1.0) and assigning it back to an int.  I didn't even realise this before but somehow beta 3.1 was doing the same thing, but multiplying the int with 1.6.  As to why 1.6 was acceptable but not 1.0 is unknown to me. 

But since I'm multiplying by unity, I got rid of it and the .NET compile works perfectly now. 

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #44 –
Excelent!!    The problems (hi-hat and strange stereo impression) with b3.1 were disappeared.

My favorite samples: QK32 won against MTb2 on 8823 and white noise samples, which were used for MTb2 tuning.

Quote
ABC/HR Version 0.9b, 30 August 2002
Testname: 8823

1R = C:\test\8823\8823-q4mtb2.wav
2L = C:\test\8823\8823-q4atb1.wav
3R = C:\test\8823\8823-q4qk32.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:

---------------------------------------
1R File: C:\test\8823\8823-q4mtb2.wav
1R Rating: 3.2
1R Comment: hi-hat.
---------------------------------------
2L File: C:\test\8823\8823-q4atb1.wav
2L Rating: 2.1
2L Comment: hi-hat and pre-echo.
---------------------------------------
3R File: C:\test\8823\8823-q4qk32.wav
3R Rating: 4.0
3R Comment: Best of all.
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:
Original vs C:\test\8823\8823-q4mtb2.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016
Original vs C:\test\8823\8823-q4atb1.wav
    10 out of 11, pval = 0.006
Original vs C:\test\8823\8823-q4qk32.wav
    9 out of 13, pval = 0.133

Quote
ABC/HR Version 0.9b, 30 August 2002
Testname: HongKong GP

1R = C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4qk32.wav
2L = C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4atb1.wav
3L = C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4mtb2.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:

---------------------------------------
1R File: C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4qk32.wav
1R Rating: 3.0
1R Comment: Spreading Chinese gong to the right channel.
---------------------------------------
2L File: C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4atb1.wav
2L Rating: 2.5
2L Comment: Spreading Chinese gong to the right channel. Pre-echo of tambourine.
---------------------------------------
3L File: C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4mtb2.wav
3L Rating: 4.0
3L Comment: Chinese gong is perfect. Pre-echo of tambourine.
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:
Original vs C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4qk32.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016
Original vs C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4atb1.wav
    7 out of 8, pval = 0.035
Original vs C:\test\hongkong-gp-intro\hongkong-gp-intro-q4mtb2.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016

Quote
ABC/HR Version 0.9b, 30 August 2002
Testname: White noise

1L = C:\test\white-noise-12db\white-noise-12db-q4atb1.wav
2L = C:\test\white-noise-12db\white-noise-12db-q4qk32.wav
3R = C:\test\white-noise-12db\white-noise-12db-q4mtb2.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:

---------------------------------------
1L File: C:\test\white-noise-12db\white-noise-12db-q4atb1.wav
1L Rating: 2.0
1L Comment:
---------------------------------------
2L File: C:\test\white-noise-12db\white-noise-12db-q4qk32.wav
2L Rating: 3.5
2L Comment:
---------------------------------------
3R File: C:\test\white-noise-12db\white-noise-12db-q4mtb2.wav
3R Rating: 3.0
3R Comment:
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:
Original vs C:\test\white-noise-12db\white-noise-12db-q4atb1.wav
    8 out of 9, pval = 0.020
Original vs C:\test\white-noise-12db\white-noise-12db-q4qk32.wav
    8 out of 9, pval = 0.020
Original vs C:\test\white-noise-12db\white-noise-12db-q4mtb2.wav
    8 out of 9, pval = 0.020


some of guruboolez's samples:
Quote
ABC/HR Version 0.9b, 30 August 2002
Testname: Harpsichord(yates)

1R = C:\test\harpsichord(yates)\harpsichord(yates)-q4mtb2.wav
2L = C:\test\harpsichord(yates)\harpsichord(yates)-q4qk32.wav
3L = C:\test\harpsichord(yates)\harpsichord(yates)-q4atb1.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:

---------------------------------------
1R File: C:\test\harpsichord(yates)\harpsichord(yates)-q4mtb2.wav
1R Rating: 2.8
1R Comment:
---------------------------------------
2L File: C:\test\harpsichord(yates)\harpsichord(yates)-q4qk32.wav
2L Rating: 2.0
2L Comment:
---------------------------------------
3L File: C:\test\harpsichord(yates)\harpsichord(yates)-q4atb1.wav
3L Rating: 3.5
3L Comment:
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:
Original vs C:\test\harpsichord(yates)\harpsichord(yates)-q4mtb2.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016
Original vs C:\test\harpsichord(yates)\harpsichord(yates)-q4qk32.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016
Original vs C:\test\harpsichord(yates)\harpsichord(yates)-q4atb1.wav
    10 out of 14, pval = 0.090

Quote
ABC/HR Version 0.9b, 30 August 2002
Testname: Mars

1L = C:\test\mars\Mars-q4mtb2.wav
2L = C:\test\mars\mars-q4qk32.wav
3R = C:\test\mars\Mars-q4atb1.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:

---------------------------------------
1L File: C:\test\mars\Mars-q4mtb2.wav
1L Rating: 2.2
1L Comment:
---------------------------------------
2L File: C:\test\mars\mars-q4qk32.wav
2L Rating: 3.0
2L Comment:
---------------------------------------
3R File: C:\test\mars\Mars-q4atb1.wav
3R Rating: 2.6
3R Comment:
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:
Original vs C:\test\mars\Mars-q4mtb2.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016
Original vs C:\test\mars\mars-q4qk32.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016
Original vs C:\test\mars\Mars-q4atb1.wav
    6 out of 6, pval = 0.016


I am under the impression that QK32 is now ahead of the tuning race, but I'd like to see more listening results. 

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #45 –
I'd like to test all these new encoders, but for the moment, I've internet but not the soundcard and the headphone 

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #46 –
Beta 3.2 was felt very impressive. The HF Boost problem has improved remarkably. So conversely that it becomes the low bit rate rather, a high frequency region can be heard so that it may tend to decrease rather than original.

Nice work!

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #47 –
Thanks for the tests, nyaochi.  On the harpsichord sample, was the pre-echo in QKb3.2 a problem?  My guess is that the stereo compensation is reversing my earlier pre-echo tunings. 

The spreading of the chinese gong to the right is something I'll examine.  Do you know where I can download this sample?

Beta 3.2 isn't doing so well with the classical genre.  If only I had better ears.

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #48 –
Quote
Thanks for the tests, nyaochi.  On the harpsichord sample, was the pre-echo in QKb3.2 a problem?  My guess is that the stereo compensation is reversing my earlier pre-echo tunings. 

Yes. Pre-echo around the beginning of the sample.

I uploaded Hong-kong grand prix sample (open the url directly with your browser and rename *.flac.zip to *.flac after your download). I can abx this sample by Chinese gong at the beginning and tambourine.

My tuned Vorbis: QKTune beta 1 :)

Reply #49 –
Thanks.  I just downloaded the sample and had a listen.  These effects with the gong are very subtle, I must say.  But I think I can hear it so I'll see how it goes when I get time for further tuning.