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Topic: o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2 (Read 19633 times) previous topic - next topic
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o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #25 –
The point of the O2 and ODAC was to make a very good headphone amp and very good a DAC by using objective measurements and testing, without the common audiophile trappings that are widely claimed to be necessary for a high sound quality. In the case of the ODAC specifically, he designed it to show that you don't need any of the following:

(Cripped from the NwAvGuy blog)
  • Asynchronous USB
  • UAC2 (USB Audio Class 2) Support
  • Asynchronous Sample Rate Conversion (ASRC),
  • Minimum Phase Filtering (no pre-ringing)
  • Non-oversampling NOS DAC chips
  • Dual DAC chips
  • Balanced Outputs
  • Vacuum Tube Stages
  • Elaborate and/or High Current Power Supplies

According to the blog, it proved itself to be indistinguishable from a Benchmark DAC1 ($1600) in blind tests, even if it has slightly lesser specs (and a dramatically lower price).

I'd say that constitutes points scored for objective measurements.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #26 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
No, I remember Scamp's tests.  They were utterly boring - nothing wrong, lots of leading zeroes, and everything done right.

Interesting that nobody else seems to remember them. Blinded by all the hype surrounding the O2?  ;-)

I was talking about the Magni, not the Topping.

NX1 measurements are fine.
"I hear it when I see it."

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #27 –
Quote from: xnor on
SMD relays do not look like those chunky transparent relays.

Here's why their amps need them:
Schiit Asgard on/off cycle K702 [youtube]

and: nwavguy blog (read the first 6 bullet points or so)



How is the Asgard relevant to the Magni?

Where are the damning measurements or proper listening tests of the Magni?

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #28 –
It has nothing to do with the Argard per se either. It's their simple, discrete and usually DC coupled designs that produce potentially headphone-damaging DC offset when the power supply voltage builds up or breaks down.

After playing the issue down on huddler-fi they eventually implemented simple relays in all of their products where it makes sense. They wouldn't have added a relay to the Magni if there was no potential danger, especially to IEMs... (which they say the Magni is suited for)
"I hear it when I see it."

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #30 –
0.025% THD is definitely inaudible. I think 1% is inaudible as well. In the audio world diminishing returns come pretty early and if you wanna go for something better (not a lot better), you pay the price.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #31 –
Quote from: MusicExp on
0.025% THD is definitely inaudible.


Thanks. Under the most ideal conditions I have ever been able to imagine and test,  it takes about 0.1 % THD to be audible. Much less than that, and audibility is so incredibly unlikely it baskically never happens. I've never ever known it to happen, ever except of course in a sighted evaluation where it was a figment of the mind(s).

Quote
I think 1% is inaudible as well.


Now we are in the "It depends" territory.  Since 0.1% is just barely audible under the most ideal of possible conditions,  getting audiblity at the 1% level simply takes less ideal conditions.  Getting audibility at the 10% level can be surprisingly difficult.  The higher the distortion, the more likely the right conditions for audibility will occur.  Fairly gross clipping can slip by the ear if it is infrequent or short and that might be >30% distortion.

Quote
In the audio world diminishing returns come pretty early and if you wanna go for something better (not a lot better), you pay the price.


Back in the day when all we had were tubes,  It was not uncommon to find tubed amps that measured 1% THD or more as used, within their rated power within the normal audible frequency range.  When SS amps first came out and started being durable enough for people to actually get experience with them, they generally has 0.1% THD or less.  Getting a tubed amp to DBT "No differences" with a passable SS amp took a better than average tubed amp.  Since our DBTs were frequency response matched, source impedance effects were not an issue.  I'd say that a power amp that has more than 0.1% THD at power levels below 20 watts is a crappy design that is playing footsie with sounding bad due to nonlinear distortion. 

Remember that in amps for reproduction of general music and dialog audible nonlinear distortion is never what most people would call euphonic because it generates aharmonic IM as well as the allegedly euphonic harmonics. This is one of the big differences between amps for use with a solo instrument and amps for use with general audio sources. A lot of amps that measure to have high nonlinear distortion are probably usually operated at far lower power levels than the test conditions, and actually have reasonably low (0.1% or less) nonlinear distortion as used.  If a power amp has 1% THD at 20 watts, it is probably well under 0.1% at 2 watts which might be where most people actually listen to it at.

I'm not willing to give  SS amps a pass on generating damaging low frequency transients routinely on the grounds that they are minimalist designs or that they uses only a few discrete parts.  Virtually all of the SS power amps built until  the early-80s were usually, by modern standards minimalist designs and used discrete parts for lack of suitable monolithic ICs. If they had protection relays, they were there to deal with hard device failures.  It has been possible to eliminate routinely generated damaging LF transients with careful design.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #32 –
There is range of headphones which have THD of 0,1% (or about).  And if DAC+amp will have another 0,1% THD then total distortion will be 0,14%(?).  That's higher than 0,1%.


BTW Nwavguy talks about THD 0,01%

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.ar/2012/04/odac-released.html
Quote
Here are what I believe to be relatively conservative criteria for audible transparency and the ODAC passes all of them:

...

All Harmonic, IMD, Alias, Modulation, & Crosstalk Components Below –90 dBFS and total sum below –80 dBFS (0.01%)


P.S. Anyway Topping NX1 has THD 0,025%. It should be enough to be inaudible with any headphones.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #33 –
Quote from: IgorC on
There is range of headphones which have THD of 0,1% (or about).  And if DAC+amp will have another 0,1% THD then total distortion will be 0,14%(?).  That's higher than 0,1%.


The question mark after the 0.14% number seems very appropriate because estimating the cumulative effects of nonlinear distortion from different sources can be complex and difficult.  Nonlinear distortion can take many forms, and even just the list of categories of nonlinear distortion can be dizzying: Even, Odd, Low-order, High-order, FM distortion, AM distortion, etc.  In general no two sources of nonlinear distortion are exactly the same.  if they aren't identically the same the simplest answer which is arithmetic addition is probably wrong.  In your example you seem to have estimated using geometric addition which is an improvement and consistent with accepted practice, but still not necessarily the right answer.  For example even order distortion of opposite polarities can cancel out leaving less distortion than any individual source.


Quote
BTW Nwavguy talks about THD 0,01%

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.ar/2012/04/odac-released.html
Quote
Here are what I believe to be relatively conservative criteria for audible transparency and the ODAC passes all of them:

...
All Harmonic, IMD, Alias, Modulation, & Crosstalk Components Below –90 dBFS and total sum below –80 dBFS (0.01%)



His choice is unassailably conservative, which I understand to be his general goal.  I think his big picture was that many audiophiles seem to think that any amount of measurable distortion is audible, or at least a source of concern no matter how many leading zeroes.  Relying on sighted evaluations inevitably leads to this trap. Extracting the AES from this trap back in the early 1980s was one of the goals of ABX.

Quote
P.S. Anyway Topping NX1 has THD 0,025%. It should be enough to be inaudible with any headphones.


It is in about the same range as the Sansa Clip, for example.