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Topic: Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences? (Read 20765 times) previous topic - next topic
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Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

I'm involved in making DIY preamps for musical instruments. I see LOTS of different capacitors in different sizes, price, materials, etc. with the same value. (i.e. .01uF).

What I'd like to know from the non-audiophile community is whether component choices can make audible differences in the sound?  - Specifically, capacitors.  I'd like to go with some small, inexpensive, modern film capacitors from someplace like Mouser or Digikey.  In designing a vintage style circuit, can "improvements" be had by the selection of more expensive "audio-grade" or "vintage-style" capacitors? or is it a waste of money and common sense? 

I'm of the opinion that beyond circuit design, the actual components chosen (as long as they fit the specs) are of little/no significance to what the end result sounds like.  Am I wrong?
I'm looking for objective answers. (TOS #8) Subjective is meaningless to me.  I figured this would be the only forum where that's likely.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #1 –
There are substantial differences in series resistance and frequency response between capacitor types. Pick one that is suitable for your application.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: saratoga on
There are substantial differences in series resistance and frequency response between capacitor types. Pick one that is suitable for your application.
Well, I mean the film and ceramic caps used in the signal path itself (tone stack filters, DC blockers, couplers). Not the electrolytics in power supplies, etc.
I see orange drops, mallorys and others that one can spend even more on in many of these circuits, but I'm wondering if the compact, inexpensive "box" types will work just as well.

When you say "Pick one which is suitable for my application", I read that as, if the circuit calls for a .01uF cap, then any .01uF cap is suitable. So why should I opt for more expensive ones when the least expensive .01uF cap is suitable for my application.
By saying "there are substantial differences in series resistance and frequency response between capacitor types." I'm assuming you mean different materials sound different? In other words, really large, expensive ones ought to sound better?

My big red flag B.S. detector goes off when I see the marketing for "audio grade" caps, which are larger, prettier, etc. with the higher cost ones invariably purported to sound better than the lower cost ones...

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: oatmeal769 on
By saying "there are substantial differences in series resistance and frequency response between capacitor types." I'm assuming you mean different materials sound different?


I'm saying that different capacitors can be made with meaningfully different electrical properties.  You need to be aware of this when designing a circuit and pick ones that are suitable, or, if the capacitor type is constrained, design the rest of the system such that it works.  If you don't know what I mean and are just following someone else's design, I'd suggest just sticking with the specified capacitors rather than picking new ones at random, which may or may not perform worse than what was intended. 

Quote from: oatmeal769 on
My big red flag B.S. detector goes off when I see the marketing for "audio grade" caps, which are larger, prettier, etc. with the higher cost ones invariably purported to sound better than the lower cost ones...


"Grade" is not a real electrical parameter, so yes, it doesn't in and of itself mean anything. 

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: saratoga on
I'm saying that different capacitors can be made with meaningfully different electrical properties.  You need to be aware of this when designing a circuit and pick ones that are suitable, or, if the capacitor type is constrained, design the rest of the system such that it works.  If you don't know what I mean and are just following someone else's design, I'd suggest just sticking with the specified capacitors rather than picking new ones at random, which may or may not perform worse than what was intended.

Well, schematics - whether I'm following someone else's or creating my own in LTSpice, don't specify anything other than the value. (.01 uF for example) I could use a mica one, a poly film one, a polyester one, etc. Or, I could go to an "audiophile" site and spend many times more than I might otherwise on a "Black Gate" or "auri-cap" thing... But regardless, as long as I use a .01uF cap at that point, the circuit will function as designed.  Do you see my meaning?

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: oatmeal769 on
Well, schematics - whether I'm following someone else's or creating my own in LTSpice, don't specify anything other than the value. (.01 uF for example) I could use a mica one, a poly film one, a polyester one, etc.


Hopefully if you're designing this thing in spice you have some intuition about what is needed, but at worst you could simply simulate the chosen cap and see if its ok. 

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #6 –
Example:

This is an excerpt from an article I found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030807122631/...ors/pickcap.htm

Is it truth, or B.S.?
---------------------------------------
"Summary
If we have done a good job on this article, a glance at Table III and considerations of the distortion discussions should allow the reader to easily select a good capacitor. For reasons of practicality and other rationalizations, there are the inevitable trade-offs. However, here is the way we see it.
Up to values of about 10,000 pF, polystyrene is the best all around choice, as it has reasonable size and is readily available in many sizes, with tight tolerances available. Above 10,000 pF, and up to 0.1 u F, it still can be used but is much harder to obtain.
Above, 0.1- u F polypropylene (or metalized polypropylene) is the dielectric of choice, as it has nearly the same relative qualities of DF and DA as polystyrene. Tight tolerances are available (but will be special order), and you can get capacitors up to 10 u F or more.
Teflon may well be the best dielectric of all for audio, but is produced in limited volume and is generally not practical. Parylene is an excellent dielectric also, but limited in electrical size ( 1 uF or less) and not widely available. Polycarbonate is perhaps the next best all-around choice behind these and is generally available in a wide range of values.
Polyester types are the most widely available for all the films and are already widely used in many audio circuits. There is no doubt that this is due to the generally low cost of these capacitors, but convenience and low cost should not be primary selection criteria to a critical audiophile. Polyester capacitors can be readily heard in good systems, with defects similar to those described for tantalum but, of course, reduced in magnitude.
In our opinion, polyester capacitors should be very carefully applied in an audiophile's system, and any system using them in the signal path may potentially benefit by the substitution of (equal value, voltage and tolerance) polypropylenes or polycarbonates. We have done this ourselves on different items of equipment, tube and transistor, with always the same result—a stunning upgrade in sound quality. Further, we have observed others do similar things, either completely independently or at our direction, with the same type of results.
It is not surprising to us that this type of reaction occurs, since one single polyester or electrolytic (or other polar type) can be heard, and a typical update to an old preamp or amp might replace a dozen or more! If you did nothing more than take an old (stock) Dynaco PA5 preamp and change the capacitors to polypropylenes, you can be literally astounded at the results. All of this is available at moderate cost to anyone who can solder, and you need not send your amp off to the specialty audio shop either! (Capacitor sources are listed in the appendices.)"
---------------------------------------

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #7 –
I'm away from my little library right now, but as I recall:

In the assembly instructions for his Pluto active speaker system, S. Linkwitz suggested low dissipation factors when choosing audio capacitors. For signal-coupling and equalization, his recommended parts were polypropylene, with polyester aka Mylar being used for some high frequency decoupling of the power supply. For the latter, pains were taken to locate the bypass caps very close to the point of use i.e. very close to each op amp. Polyester capacitors are typically cheaper and quite a bit smaller than their PP counterparts.

And in an article about capacitor break-in effects, Douglas Self noted measurable improvement in polyester capacitors with use, but concluded that PP is still superior. But he did not go so far as to imply that one should use PP to the exclusion of all else: For his own designs he uses other types where it makes sense to do so--lots of instances where the deluxe treatment isn't justified such as power supply.

C0G/NP0 ceramic and polystyrene types are also worth a look if you need something in a smaller value (RIAA eq circuits maybe?)

But I dunno about musical instrument amps: I thought that distortion was sometimes a sought-after part of a musician's sound?

Have been satisfied with the parts I've obtained via Mouser, Digikey et al. I generally pick the cheapest ones in stock.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: oatmeal769 on
Example:

This is an excerpt from an article I found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030807122631/...ors/pickcap.htm

Is it truth, or B.S.?


Yeah its pretty reasonable.  Polypropylene capacitors are a good choice for low ESR, low capacitance applications, which is what I think that link is actually talking about.  I wouldn't choose them blindly though.  For a lot of things other materials will be a better choice, particularly if you don't need low ESR. 

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Yeah its pretty reasonable.  Polypropylene capacitors are a good choice for low ESR, low capacitance applications, which is what I think that link is actually talking about.  I wouldn't choose them blindly though.  For a lot of things other materials will be a better choice, particularly if you don't need low ESR.

I saw that temperature considerations using polypropylene or polystyrene could be a problem.  Some of these vintage tube circuits get pretty hot inside their enclosures.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #10 –
Probably 90% of the capacitors in an amplifier are not directly in the signal path.  And, even the caps in the signal path are not that critical.    Usually, there's a minimum value and a higher value (maybe 10 times higher or more) will make no difference. 

You've got to understand the purpose of each capacitor before you can begin to determine how critical it is.

Like 4season says, if you are making an RIAA phono amp, or bass & treble controls, etc.  The capacitor value is more critical.    Where the capacitor is critical, it's usually just the value & tolerance that are important (as well as the voltage rating, of course).

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: oatmeal769 on
Example:

This is an excerpt from an article I found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030807122631/...ors/pickcap.htm

Is it truth, or B.S.?
---------------------------------------
"Summary
If we have done a good job on this article, a glance at Table III and considerations of the distortion discussions should allow the reader to easily select a good capacitor. For reasons of practicality and other rationalizations, there are the inevitable trade-offs. However, here is the way we see it.
Up to values of about 10,000 pF, polystyrene is the best all around choice, as it has reasonable size and is readily available in many sizes, with tight tolerances available. Above 10,000 pF, and up to 0.1 u F, it still can be used but is much harder to obtain.
Above, 0.1- u F polypropylene (or metalized polypropylene) is the dielectric of choice, as it has nearly the same relative qualities of DF and DA as polystyrene. Tight tolerances are available (but will be special order), and you can get capacitors up to 10 u F or more.
Teflon may well be the best dielectric of all for audio, but is produced in limited volume and is generally not practical. Parylene is an excellent dielectric also, but limited in electrical size ( 1 uF or less) and not widely available. Polycarbonate is perhaps the next best all-around choice behind these and is generally available in a wide range of values.
Polyester types are the most widely available for all the films and are already widely used in many audio circuits. There is no doubt that this is due to the generally low cost of these capacitors, but convenience and low cost should not be primary selection criteria to a critical audiophile. Polyester capacitors can be readily heard in good systems, with defects similar to those described for tantalum but, of course, reduced in magnitude.
In our opinion, polyester capacitors should be very carefully applied in an audiophile's system, and any system using them in the signal path may potentially benefit by the substitution of (equal value, voltage and tolerance) polypropylenes or polycarbonates. We have done this ourselves on different items of equipment, tube and transistor, with always the same result—a stunning upgrade in sound quality. Further, we have observed others do similar things, either completely independently or at our direction, with the same type of results.
It is not surprising to us that this type of reaction occurs, since one single polyester or electrolytic (or other polar type) can be heard, and a typical update to an old preamp or amp might replace a dozen or more! If you did nothing more than take an old (stock) Dynaco PA5 preamp and change the capacitors to polypropylenes, you can be literally astounded at the results. All of this is available at moderate cost to anyone who can solder, and you need not send your amp off to the specialty audio shop either! (Capacitor sources are listed in the appendices.)"
---------------------------------------


You should know that you are citing one of the all time worst BS articles in the history of audio. 

At time several very technical friends and I tried to engage the authors in a dialog but their responses were BS.

It is all based on sighted evaluations and measurements that typically involve inaudible (several times over) amount of distortion.

Such potentially valid points that were made violated the general rules for good component choices that existed and were widely followed years before the articles. IOW, they focused on problems that were either trumped-up, imaginary, or were well understood and widely addressed.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
You should know that you are citing one of the all time worst BS articles in the history of audio.

Nice! Well, glad I posted a particularly glaring example, Go big or go home!  It's when I read things like that article which purport that changing caps will result in a "stunning upgrade in sound quality" or if I "change the capacitors to polypropylenes, (I) can be literally astounded at the results."  Stunning upgrade? Literally astounded?? BEEEE-ESSSS!!

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
At time several very technical friends and I tried to engage the authors in a dialog but their responses were BS.
Well, that's the root of what I am asking. Are there measurable, audible differences, or not.  I'm seeing that, within those parameters, the answer is a definitive NO.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
It is all based on sighted evaluations and measurements that typically involve inaudible (several times over) amount of distortion.
Guessing this means that when someone knows the components beforehand, bias is introduced? IOW, no one has produced ABX examples, and measured distortion being in the 0.0001% range, or above 20 gigahertz? LOL

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Such potentially valid points that were made violated the general rules for good component choices that existed and were widely followed years before the articles. IOW, they focused on problems that were either trumped-up, imaginary, or were well understood and widely addressed.
Thanks for the good answers.  There is such abundance, and overwhelming surety in these bunk assertions that it's hard not to at least question. Looks like I'll be ordering some name brand, inexpensive caps from Mouser.  I was worried because I'm duplicating a classic circuit for my latest project, and wanted to be sure to get the sound right.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: 4season on
Linkwitz suggested low dissipation factors when choosing audio capacitors. For signal-coupling and equalization, his recommended parts were polypropylene, with polyester aka Mylar being used for some high frequency decoupling of the power supply. For the latter, pains were taken to locate the bypass caps very close to the point of use i.e. very close to each op amp. Polyester capacitors are typically cheaper and quite a bit smaller than their PP counterparts.
Do you know if he made these recommendations based on audible difference, or electrical design standpoints?
Quote from: 4season on
And in an article about capacitor break-in effects, Douglas Self noted measurable improvement in polyester capacitors with use, but concluded that PP is still superior.
Were these measurements within a range people would be able to hear?
Quote from: 4season on
I thought that distortion was sometimes a sought-after part of a musician's sound?
Most definitely, but thus far my experience is that it's the circuit design and use itself which is most of the effect. I believe (So I'm told, and what I believe I can hear) that when tubes are driven into distortion vs. solid state, the differences become audible, and the resulting sound is what we're after. These amps, even when used in a really 'clean' setting still have discernable levels of distortion which contribute to the desired tone.  Tube circuits sound better to me most of the time when creating music. Reproducing music is an entirely different matter...
Quote from: 4season on
Have been satisfied with the parts I've obtained via Mouser, Digikey et al. I generally pick the cheapest ones in stock.
That's where I'm leaning at this point.  It's the circuit design, and the use of tubes that creates the sound.  I don't need to use vintage or exotic capacitors (or resistors, etc.) to get it, or make it 'better'.  For all I know, the 'tube' effect is placebo too, and can be done with solid state.  I haven't heard it yet though...

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: oatmeal769 on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
It is all based on sighted evaluations and measurements that typically involve inaudible (several times over) amount of distortion.

Guessing this means that when someone knows the components beforehand, bias is introduced?


Exactly. Or, more to the point when you know what you are listening to when you are listening to it, there is an outstanding possibility that your sonic reactions will be affected by what you know.

Quote
IOW, no one has produced ABX examples, and measured distortion being in the 0.0001% range, or above 20 gigahertz? LOL


All true, and for some that is an effective criticism of ABX.

More to the point:

There are measurable differences among capacitors, some of which can be observed as differences in the circuit's performance.  Thing is, we can measure a great many things that  nobody can hear.

There have been general guidelines for choosing capacitors that have been known about for something like 50 years.  Things like don't use tantalum capacitors for coupling capacitors when there is inadequate voltage drop across them. Things like electrolytic capacitors are never precise, and are more prone to fail in a few dozens of years. Things like don't use hi-K ceramic capacitors for audio coupling or frequency-dependent networks.  Some of those rules can even lead to audible distortion if you break them.

Quote
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Such potentially valid points that were made violated the general rules for good component choices that existed and were widely followed years before the articles. IOW, they focused on problems that were either trumped-up, imaginary, or were well understood and widely addressed.


Thanks for the good answers.  There is such abundance, and overwhelming surety in these bunk assertions that it's hard not to at least question. Looks like I'll be ordering some name brand, inexpensive caps from Mouser.  I was worried because I'm duplicating a classic circuit for my latest project, and wanted to be sure to get the sound right.


Mouser is a good  source, but IME they don't always have stock.


Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #15 –
Quote
That's where I'm leaning at this point. It's the circuit design, and the use of tubes that creates the sound.
Are you building a tube amp?  I hope you have a good source for the output transformer.  That's probably the most critical component (assuming everything else in the design is done right).  I'd guess the output-transformer is also the single most expensive component.   

Quote
Most definitely, but thus far my experience is that it's the circuit design and use itself which is most of the effect. I believe (So I'm told, and what I believe I can hear) that when tubes are driven into distortion vs. solid state, the differences become audible, and the resulting sound is what we're after. These amps, even when used in a really 'clean' setting still have discernable levels of distortion which contribute to the desired tone.
Guitar amps (along with their speaker cabinets) are not designed to be "high fidelity".  They intentionally impart a sound of their own which becomes "part of the instrument".  You've probably found that no two guitar amps sound alike  (tube or solid state).

If you've ever played your guitar directly through a hi-fi or PA system, it probably doesn't "sound right".

Quote
Tube circuits sound better to me most of the time when creating music. Reproducing music is an entirely different matter...
It most-likely depends on the amp.    In a blind test, you may prefer some random solid state amp over some random tube amp.    A good guitar amp (tube or solid-state) should be designed to "sound good" when over-driven. 

However, if you've got a particular tube amp that you really like, you'll probably prefer it to anything else.  Solid-state or software simulation of the amp probably won't satisfy you.    (And a DIY tube duplication probably won't satisfy you either.)

But in the end when you listen to a CD, you can't tell by listening if the guitarist used a tube amp, solid-state, or direct with simulation.  (It's quiet common to record the amp with a mic and direct at the same time.)    And, you can't tell what guitar or pick-up was used, or what mic was used in front of the guitar cab, etc.  You might be familiar with what a particular artist uses, but then you've still got unknown effect pedals, and the artist might not even know that the engineer is using a sim, or re-amping, or whatever.



P.S.
I've built a few solid-state amps, using integrated circuits wherever possible to keep it as foolproof as possible, and to keep the cost down.  But, I wouldn't bother today because I can buy something for a LOT less money than it would cost to build it.  And, what I'm buying is probably better than what I could build.

I've worked-on tube amps (years ago), but personally wouldn't try building one.  It's more difficult than going solid-state, the circuits are more "finicky", and the cost per-watt is a LOT higher. 

I'm not a guitar player, but I think I could do better with solid state and "tube simulation" than with real tubes.    I'm not saying I could build a solid-state amp that sounds exactly like a Marshall tube amp, but as an amateur I think I'd do better with solid state than with tubes.  And it would cost less money, but it still might cost more than buying one at the music store.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: 4season on
I'm away from my little library right now, but as I recall:

In the assembly instructions for his Pluto active speaker system, S. Linkwitz suggested low dissipation factors when choosing audio capacitors.



I tried to research this. Linkwitz's doc for the Pluto loudspeaker that I found starts here: Pluto Construction Plans by Linkwitz

You're going to have to help out me here, as I found no such thing, and Google searching produced nothing.

I even found this statement: "The increased dissipation factor of 0.3% for PPS compared to 0.1% for PP should have no sonic effect."  Linkwitz says differences in capacitor dissipation have "No sonic effect"

Links, please?

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: oatmeal769 on
I'm involved in making DIY preamps for musical instruments. I see LOTS of different capacitors in different sizes, price, materials, etc. with the same value. (i.e. .01uF).

What I'd like to know from the non-audiophile community is whether component choices can make audible differences in the sound?  - Specifically, capacitors.  I'd like to go with some small, inexpensive, modern film capacitors from someplace like Mouser or Digikey.


It is hard to go wrong with a good modern standard production polyester film capacitor of the kind that Mouser or Digikey sell as long as they don't get to be so large that they are prohibitively expensive or physically large.  When that happens usually the use of other kinds of caps or a re-design is indicated.

Quote
In designing a vintage style circuit, can "improvements" be had by the selection of more expensive "audio-grade" or "vintage-style" capacitors? or is it a waste of money and common sense?


There are in reality really no such things as audio grade caps. There are caps that have high tolerance, low ESR, etc, but they are for general use that goes well beyond audio. When you need an exceptional cap like for example in a precision sample-and-hold, you need em! Otherwise, audio is generally not the most critical application around.

For example I once had a Sony CD player with caps that were proudly emblazoned with "Audio Grade" They failed very prematurely after a couple of years and they were the only ones that ever failed in the whole component after dozens of years. In another case a friend had an active speaker with electrolytic caps that were similarly marked. They also failed prematurely and when he cut them apart he found smaller more standard parts wrapped up inside.

Quote
I'm of the opinion that beyond circuit design, the actual components chosen (as long as they fit the specs) are of little/no significance to what the end result sounds like.  Am I wrong?


Hold that thought!

Quote
I'm looking for objective answers. (TOS #8) Subjective is meaningless to me.  I figured this would be the only forum where that's likely.


Reliable subjective tests are the gold standard, because every word I said above would be trash if bad sound due non-audio-grade caps were a real problem, as determined using reliable listening tests.  However those tests have been done, and they confirmed the standard technical analysis. 

Use good, appropriate caps, but really exceptional caps generally show no advantage for audio.  Most  so-called audio grade caps are just hype. In general the pro audio gear used to produce recordings use regular commercial grade parts.  If non-audio grade caps inherently damaged sound quality, then the damage was probably already done when the recording was made.

Here's a litmus test - check any article that hypes component differences to see if they can produce actual bench tests that show an measurable advantage for the complete assembled component. I've read 100s of these articles, and not one has done that.  This is even true when trumped-up bench tests of just the component shows measurable differences.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: 4season on
I'm away from my little library right now, but as I recall:

In the assembly instructions for his Pluto active speaker system, S. Linkwitz suggested low dissipation factors when choosing audio capacitors.



I tried to research this. Linkwitz's doc for the Pluto loudspeaker that I found starts here: Pluto Construction Plans by Linkwitz

You're going to have to help out me here, as I found no such thing, and Google searching produced nothing.

I even found this statement: "The increased dissipation factor of 0.3% for PPS compared to 0.1% for PP should have no sonic effect."  Linkwitz says differences in capacitor dissipation have "No sonic effect"

Links, please?


A link won't help if it goes to a restricted area of the Orion/Pluto User's Group, but hopefully no one will object to my reposting an excerpt here:
Quote

Help with replacement parts
Postby SL » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:56 am

Can someone knowledgeable in electronics please identify replacements for the obsolete parts in PLUTO and ORION? I do not have the time for it due to other priorities.

The important capacitor parameters are:

Tolerance 2%
Dissipation factor 0.1% at 1 kHz (maybe this can be relaxed to 0.3%)
>25 VDC
Leads adaptable to the pcb hole spacing and hole diameters
Cost comparable to what has become obsolete, or less
Worldwide and continued availability

Post what you find in this forum so that new builders can complete their projects.

Thanks,
SL
[\quote]
IIRC the parts in question were part of the active crossover circuitry.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: 4season on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: 4season on
I'm away from my little library right now, but as I recall:

In the assembly instructions for his Pluto active speaker system, S. Linkwitz suggested low dissipation factors when choosing audio capacitors.



I tried to research this. Linkwitz's doc for the Pluto loudspeaker that I found starts here: Pluto Construction Plans by Linkwitz

You're going to have to help out me here, as I found no such thing, and Google searching produced nothing.

I even found this statement: "The increased dissipation factor of 0.3% for PPS compared to 0.1% for PP should have no sonic effect."  Linkwitz says differences in capacitor dissipation have "No sonic effect"

Links, please?


A link won't help if it goes to a restricted area of the Orion/Pluto User's Group, but hopefully no one will object to my reposting an excerpt here:
Quote
Help with replacement parts
Postby SL » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:56 am

Can someone knowledgeable in electronics please identify replacements for the obsolete parts in PLUTO and ORION? I do not have the time for it due to other priorities.

The important capacitor parameters are:

Tolerance 2%
Dissipation factor 0.1% at 1 kHz (maybe this can be relaxed to 0.3%)
>25 VDC
Leads adaptable to the pcb hole spacing and hole diameters
Cost comparable to what has become obsolete, or less
Worldwide and continued availability

Post what you find in this forum so that new builders can complete their projects.

Thanks,
SL

IIRC the parts in question were part of the active crossover circuitry.


I'm not going to try to make sense of Linkwitz's contradictory and unsupported statements. In public he seems to say one thing, in private he seems to say something else.

I suggest you bring this up with him via eMail. If he doesn't respond, go with his public statement which appears to mean that DF on the order of 0.3% which is typical of standard parts, is OK.

Example Panasonic ECQE series: Panasonic ECQE series sample data sheet

One other problem seems to be the tolerance requirement - his casual comment seems to say 2%, and those are relatively rare. Many are obtained by buying a number of parts, testing with a capacitance meter, and hand-selecting.


Frankly, the Pluto project seems to be looking a bit long in the tooth  technologically. High quality crossovers implemented in the digital domain are often more practical, and Mini-DSP can be a good source.  DSPs solve most of these capacitor problems, forthwith!  Mini DSP web site kubk

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I'm not going to try to make sense of Linkwitz's contradictory and unsupported statements. In public he seems to say one thing, in private he seems to say something else.

I suggest you bring this up with him via eMail. If he doesn't respond, go with his public statement which appears to mean that DF on the order of 0.3% which is typical of standard parts, is OK.

Example Panasonic ECQE series: Panasonic ECQE series sample data sheet

One other problem seems to be the tolerance requirement - his casual comment seems to say 2%, and those are relatively rare. Many are obtained by buying a number of parts, testing with a capacitance meter, and hand-selecting.

Frankly, the Pluto project seems to be looking a bit long in the tooth  technologically. High quality crossovers implemented in the digital domain are often more practical, and Mini-DSP can be a good source.  DSPs solve most of these capacitor problems, forthwith!  Mini DSP web site kubk


Taken in context, I thought SL's posting was intended as a casual suggestion albeit from someone experienced in analog circuit design. I don't have the Pluto assembly manual handy (it's in Colorado while I'm currently in the tropics), but I seem to recall that the specific part numbers which he did list were typically for 5 or 10% tolerance Panasonic PP caps, but IIRC they wound up measuring  quite a bit better, though it's been a few years since I built them. I did measure and aim for best match between left and right channels, but didn't cherry-pick from a larger batch of parts.j

Pluto predates MiniDSP, but it's successor incorporates newer technology:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/LXmini/Introduction.htm

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: 4season on
I seem to recall that the specific part numbers which he did list were typically for 5 or 10% tolerance Panasonic PP caps,


Which seems to have jumped to 2%...

Quote
but IIRC they wound up measuring  quite a bit better,


Happily fairly typical. The same improvement has taken place for resistors.

Quote
Pluto predates MiniDSP, but it's successor incorporates newer technology:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/LXmini/Introduction.htm


Still an all-analog crossover, it seems.  The provided response curves seem like something that could be programmed into an appropriate MiniDSP.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Still an all-analog crossover, it seems.  The provided response curves seem like something that could be programmed into an appropriate MiniDSP.

Did you read past the introduction? LX Mini uses MiniDSP as crossover and EQ.

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #23 –
As a "recovering audiophile," one of the things I have realised in recent years is that it is part of the audiophile (or audiophool, at least) agenda to be convinced that everything about the reproduction of music is difficult, that there is something inherently special about signals, analogue or digital, that represent music and that components, from capacitors to cables, must, therefore, be special to be able to handle those signals.

The concept of audio grade only works if there is something special about "audio," or if enough people think there is.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Capacitors for DIY. Are there real audible differences?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: 4season on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Still an all-analog crossover, it seems.  The provided response curves seem like something that could be programmed into an appropriate MiniDSP.

Did you read past the introduction? LX Mini uses MiniDSP as crossover and EQ.


I got sidetracked into the hype for the LX521 and thus got distracted from the LXMini.  You're right - the LXMini does the right thing with the MiniDSP.  The older and larger speakers should be similarly upgraded.