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Topic: Is this r3mix.net? (Read 25530 times) previous topic - next topic
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Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #75 –
Quote
Originally posted by Sachankara
Well, the reason why everyone should encode their music in reasonable quality is because people tend to share their music for others..


:eyebrow:

Sorry, but that sounds sooo much like the reason layer3maniac thinks people are pushing high quality encodes here...

Maybe he's right after all.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #76 –
Quote
Originally posted by Sachankara
The problem is "simple"... Remove the --r3mix switch in the next version of Lame and print out a message that recommends --alt-preset standard in case someone tries to use "the old shit"...


Heh... all switches should be removed. Everything should default to --alt-preset standard

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #77 –
Quote
Originally posted by Dibrom
This is probably the last I'm going to say on this matter.

Quote
Originally posted by dors
let's close this and the Blade thread, 
...
I for sure won't answer to any of them any more,


I've read this many times already... I hope it's true this time !
If you can live with each other without saying anymore, then do.

But if there's something wrong, I'd say this :
According to the posts I've seen at r3mix and doom9, when Roel was already not there, --r3mix was wanted by some people not because of it's name, but because of it's inferior bitrate.

Quote
Originally posted by Dibrom
about 3 or 4 weeks ago I had actually created a new preset using Takehiro's experimental CVS branch. The bitrate is significantly lower than --aps (sometimes a good bit lower than --r3mix even), and the quality on difficult samples is usually much higher than --r3mix.


Now that's talking. This is the best answer you could give, though no one forced you into doing so.
Forget Roel, all this have been already said monthes ago...

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #78 –
Quote
Originally posted by dors
What's this? A personal  attack against me, because I still recommend r3mix.net side by side with HA? So you're saying that I am being harmful to the community by doing so, that I'm making a big mistake? 

Now, who's ego are we talking about, Dibrom? Roels, mine or yours?

Someone else said it before: let's close this and the Blade thread, it's turning into a flamewar. I for sure won't answer to any of them any more, although I'm sure that Dibrom will post a long answer telling me where I'm completely wrong again, and that it's nothing to do with his ego at all. 

Don't get me wrong, Dibrom, you're doing some great services to the audio encoding scene, but sometimes you're coming over as undiplomatic as Roel to me.


I'm not going to address any more "points" on this matter.

However, I do wonder how you perceived my comments as a personal attack.  What I said is in no way personal.  A personal attack would be if I would have called you a name or made some judgement about your character, neither of which occured in the passage you quoted from me.

Telling someone they are making a mistake, is not a personal attack.

Ironically, the way that you have now drawn my character into question, is a personal attack.

*sigh*... what are things coming to?

We can't imply that something might be flawed for fear of hurting someone's feelings, we can't tell someone they're making a mistake because it's a "personal attack".  How promising for the future.  This really starts to remind me of certain political situations in other areas of the technology industry.... particularly the way companies favor security through obscurity and how the DMCA is used to keep people's mouths shut.  "Don't say a word, or you'll regret it."

Oh, I guess you were right about me posting this long comment about how you are wrong again too.  Guess it makes for another personal attack, right?

I keep having to repeat this:

People posting here on HA need to understand that if they say something which other people feel is wrong, they can expect people to come out and say this.  This doesn't mean they hate you, it doesn't mean it's personal, etc, etc, etc.  It's the nature of open discussion forums.  I'm really getting tired of seeing this sort of misinterpretation occur.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #79 –
Quote
Originally posted by rjamorim


:eyebrow: 

Sorry, but that sounds sooo much like the reason layer3maniac thinks people are pushing high quality encodes here...

Maybe he's right after all.


Speak for yourself.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #80 –
Quote
Originally posted by Dibrom
Speak for yourself.


Maybe, Dibrom. Maybe

Or are you 100% sure noone here pirates music, and they aren't interested that the pirate material providers use high quality settings?

Of course, most people are here to help in audiocoding development. At least, that's what I hope. But to assume that everyone has purely well-intentioned reasons to be here is kinda naive.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #81 –
Quote
Originally posted by rjamorim


Maybe, Dibrom. Maybe

Or are you 100% sure noone here pirates music, and they aren't interested that the pirate material providers use high quality settings?

Of course, most people are here to help in audiocoding development. At least, that's what I hope. But to assume that everyone has purely well-intentioned reasons to be here is kinda naive.


I don't care what "everyone" else here has in mind when they are discussing high quality encodes.  I only care about my own intentions, the intentions of HA as a whole, and the intentions of members in this community that I respect.

When you make sweeping accusations about the motivations of others in this regard, that includes me, and it includes all those other parties I mentioned.  Even more so since the most vocal people in this thread who are advocating high quality, happen to be included in these groups as well.

This is a direct insult.  I'm rather disappointed to see it too, to be honest.  I expect a little bit more from an admin of HA, even more so given your knowledge of our upcoming projects.

After all of this recent mess, I must say that I'm honestly left wondering why I devote so much time and money (which is soon to triple, just so you guys can have a great server to use for free) to this cause.  If it's so easy to trivialize it and play it off as some selfish whim, then I honestly can't see how you guys truly value it in the first place.  I know that there are those that do really care, but it seems that group is shrinking and perhaps much smaller that I originally thought...

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #82 –
Quote
Originally posted by Dibrom
When you make sweeping accusations about the motivations of others in this regard, that includes me, and it includes all those other parties I mentioned.


Huh... AFAIK, I didn't accuse anyone, Dibrom. I just mentioned that l3m MIGHT be right about SOME people being intersted in piracy. I didn't mentioned names, and I didn't implied you for sure.

Blah.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #83 –
It's puzzling to see how easily Dibrom sees a "direct insult" where in my opionion is none, yet saying that I'm "being harmful to the community" is by no means a personal attack...

Pio: I promise to really really not post any more to this thread. No, really!

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #84 –
I'd say that the information I've gleaned from HA has actually caused me to stop pirating music. Fiddling around with all these codecs, switches, bitrates, and version numbers is a heck of a lot more fun than actually listening to music

Seriously, though, I'll never go back to downloading music, even if the l33t w4r3z H4x0r5 figure out how to use EAC secure and MPC standard. When I rip my own CD and encode and tag it myself, I'm making it mine, which just makes it more comforting to listen to. It's like comparing a burned CD copy (made by a friend) to the store-bought pressed CD. Even if the burned CD is exactly like the original (which is unlikely... so many burning programs still screw up pregaps and starting positions unless you know how to configure them), it still doesn't feel as valuable, which makes the listening experience less enjoyable.

I wouldn't have these strange, elitist notions about compressed audio and burned CD's if it wasn't for HA, but I'm still glad that I stumbled upon this place. I'm very thankful that Dibrom set up this site and continues to finance it, and I'm thankful for (most of) the regular posters here, those who want to teach, learn, commune, and always make things better.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #85 –
I would just like to see us all help each other out.  That's why HA is here.  The way I see it, it's kinda like, well, let's say there's a site out there devoted to Corvettes.  They try to spread the virtues of Corvettes, the beauty, the power etc.  Well, that's all great and it's a great car and is great for all that own them.  But for plenty of people out there, a Hyuandi or Toyota is a good enough car for them.  Should the people on the corvette forum start flaming the Hyaundi or Toyota enthusiasts site?  I don't think so.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #86 –
I would like to see people (in general) lighten up around here & stop taking things so seriously.  Save the "serious stuff" for work, or wherever it's required... life is too short.  If a message board isn't entertaining, who wants to participate?  Unless it was a developer's board or something intended mainly to exchange technical data. 

Who needs the emotional, reactive nonsense?  And how can someone "personally attack" another without knowing them, or knowing only a little?  The way you "take" a comment is in question, not the comment itself... the old saying, someone can hand you poison but you don't have to drink it.

Enjoy, everyone...

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #87 –
IMO all the strange switches and presets in LAME force people to go look for a site such as r3mix or HA to make sense of it all.  All the presets (including r3mix and phone, internet, etc) should be done away with and a quality scale introduced.  That way people won't have to necessarily search for a potentially misleading site to lead them through the switches.

I do think its necessary to have a preset with a lower bitrate than --aps occupy the default spot in the quality scale, however, so its nice to hear Dibrom's working on some new tweaks.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #88 –
Quote
Originally posted by dors
It's puzzling to see how easily Dibrom sees a "direct insult" where in my opionion is none, yet saying that I'm "being harmful to the community" is by no means a personal attack...


I never said you directly (as in "dors, you're a bad person", etc, etc) were being harmful to the community.  I said the activity of directing people to r3mix.net can be harmful to the community.

Since I have a feeling this is going to drag on, and I don't think you got my point, I'll try to clarify.

Quick question:  Did you read any of the comments on Slashdot or on Arstechnica in regards to ff123's test, at all?

Did you see how many people said the test was invalid and then said that a better testing methodology was the kind shown on r3mix.net?

Now don't you think that with each person you direct there, it's likely to increase the number of people who subscribe to this misinformed nonsense, and only make it more difficult to get honest test results like these taken seriously?

Do you not see that point at all?

When someone is recommended to a site by a person they respect, they are naturally going to think that that site is fairly credible.  I suspect that a lot of people who you point there, respect you in this manner.  So they are going to believe the information there is correct.  They may even end up setting up their own sites with similarly flawed tests (how many times have we seen that?).

Valid and objective information about audio encoding and the appropriate ways to test it, is fairly hard to come by on the internet these days.  Sites like r3mix.net, Blade's quality page, etc, just make the whole thing worse because each person that buys into this is one more person likely to convince others to support the same flawed beliefs.

I'm sorry, but I really honestly can't see how anyone could choose to ignore this.

What's worse is when most of the newbies who have had this exact thing happen to them later come here and say how much they wished they had known beforehand how flawed most of this type of information out there is.

Having said all this, there's a very big difference between making a claim like this which is highly supported by even casual observations, and flat out making slanderous generalized comments about someone's intentions, which are not.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #89 –
Quote
Originally posted by dreamliner77
The way I see it, it's kinda like, well, let's say there's a site out there devoted to Corvettes.  They try to spread the virtues of Corvettes, the beauty, the power etc.  Well, that's all great and it's a great car and is great for all that own them.  But for plenty of people out there, a Hyuandi or Toyota is a good enough car for them.  Should the people on the corvette forum start flaming the Hyaundi or Toyota enthusiasts site?  I don't think so.
I don't think that's an appropriate analogy. First of all, HA is hosting discussions about the Hyundais, the Toyotas, the 'Vettes, the Porsches, and the Minis of audio coding... the whole spectrum, from low-bitrate to lossless. After all, ff123 just had a 64kbit/s listening test, which is hardly a sports-car challenge.

Second, if someone offered you (you in the hypothetical sense, not directed at anyone in particular) either a new Hyundai or a new Corvette for the same cost, you could still make plenty of reasonable claims why you'd pick the Hyundai (more seating, better gas mileage, suits your personality, doesn't make you look like you're having a midlife crisis...). This is like the MPC vs. MP3 debate, and while MPC unquestionably sounds better at high bitrates, there are still reasons to pick MP3, such as for portable players or ease of playback on many computers/operating systems. The MPC users don't flame the MP3 users here, and in many cases people use both.

Third, this is a pretty open discussion board, and discussions get heated, but you can still say just about anything you want here, within reason. Dibrom almost never locks threads, even when they have some bad information, trolling, or insults, and I commend him for that. Anyone here who posts incorrect information will be corrected promptly, and that keeps the misinformation to a minimum, making it more like a "common myth about audio coding" than a misleading statement.

The only time the forum leaders get irritated is when someone says something rediculous like, "Corvettes perform better when you drain out the motor oil!" or, "No one buys those cars except for street-racing and running over grandmas!" Being incorrect is one thing, but making completely wrong and dangerous statements, when you know better, is something else completely. There's nothing wrong with saying you'd rather have a Hyundai then a Corvette, but if you say the Hyundai has better acceleration, you will be flamed, and rightfully so. (Okay, I think the car analogy is dead.)

To sum it up, I think that HA is much more than just an enthusiast site about one particular make or model. Anything that is true, interesting, or insightful about audo compression has a place here.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #90 –
Well said SometimesWarrior.  It's nice to see at least a little support here

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #91 –
Hi Dibrom,

I think it's the natural response of the technically oriented to trust numbers and graphs rather than ears.  Testing of perceptual coding is different than almost any other kind of "objective" testing.  I'm sure you know this already, but I'm stating it as a reminder that many (most?) people who know little or nothing about psychoacoustics will NEVER be convinced, and repetition of facts is no help either.  So the "R3mix methodology" with graphs showing frequency responses and mathematical "proofs" will always look more convincing than double-blind testing using a large number of ears.  I don't think there's a solution to it, since most will never bother to learn how psychoacoustic encoding really works.

The way I look at it, might as well let people believe whatever they want (because they will anyway). 

Best Regards

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #92 –
fewtch:

While it's true that we'll never be able to convince the whole world, I still don't think that's reason to not at least try to make as much of a difference as we can

I mean, at one point there was no HA.  People didn't use ABX much, the --alt-preset didn't exist, Vorbis was still a pipe dream, and almost nobody had even heard of MPC.

Look at it all now

The main point here is that increased knowledge and awareness (on all fronts, including proper audio testing), can lead to great progress.

I just see sites like r3mix.net standing in the way of all of this.  These sites are like the thorn in the side of progress, and I just can't understand justifying why they "aren't so bad", or why they still need to exist, etc.  Certainly I can't understand knowingly pointing people to them.  It's the same as knowingly misinforming them really.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #93 –
Quote
dors:
Roel started his r3mix forum, and I believe it started a whole lot of things. I still recommend it to newbies.

Dibrom:
Roel knows better, he just chooses not to acknowledge that he's wrong and that his site is inaccurate.

dors:
Come on, it's his site, it's his setting, so he has absolutely every right to promote it.

Dibrom:
This is probably the last I'm going to say on this matter. If people want to recommend newbies to r3mix.net, there's nothing anyone can really do to stop it.

dors:
Someone else said it before: let's close this and the Blade thread, it's turning into a flamewar.

Dibrom:
I'm not going to address any more "points" on this matter.

dors:
I promise to really really not post any more to this thread. No, really!

Dibrom:
Since I have a feeling this is going to drag on...
Perhaps it's best to just not post anything for 24 hours, rather than go back and forth, with one saying "I'm done responding, won't say another word... jackass!" and the other saying "It's inconceivable that I've typed 15 pages of replies and you're still not agreeing with me yet".
Quote
Originally posted by Dibrom
Well said SometimesWarrior.  It's nice to see at least a little support here
I don't want it to look like I'm siding up with the forum admin too closely...

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #94 –
Quote
Originally posted by Dibrom
I mean, at one point there was no HA.  People didn't use ABX much, the --alt-preset didn't exist, Vorbis was still a pipe dream, and almost nobody had even heard of MPC.


And Adam/Filburt posted that WMA IST GOD.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #95 –
Quote
Originally posted by Dibrom
fewtch:

While it's true that we'll never be able to convince the whole world, I still don't think that's reason to not at least try to make as much of a difference as we can

I mean, at one point there was no HA.  People didn't use ABX much, the --alt-preset didn't exist, Vorbis was still a pipe dream, and almost nobody had even heard of MPC.

Look at it all now

Agreed, but I think it's because many people here do have an interest in "how it works."  Maybe getting people interested in that is the key to making a difference.  The "reputation" of MP3 among people who care about sound quality is already ruined for the most part (outside of this forum that is)... Vorbis and MPC still have a good chance.

There is a point where (imho) it isn't worth the frustration.  People have to learn for themselves (it was certainly true in my case, as there was a time when I was "VBR-phobic," against joint stereo, and was a big advocate of "-v -V0 -b64 -B320 -ms -h -k" ... all due to lack of knowledge).

Edit--
Quote
I just see sites like r3mix.net standing in the way of all of this. These sites are like the thorn in the side of progress, and I just can't understand justifying why they "aren't so bad", or why they still need to exist, etc. Certainly I can't understand knowingly pointing people to them. It's the same as knowingly misinforming them really.

Maybe a comprehensive FAQ stating the reasons why graphs and such don't indicate anything would help in that regard.  Give people something just as comprehensive & engaging for a newcomer as the R3mix website to point others to, and I suspect they would.  It seems there's a real need for a "newcomer-friendly" site like R3mix, but presenting facts instead of voodoo.

P.S... I'm not too shabby a writer and would be happy to help somehow, although I'm no expert on psychoacoustic encoding either.  Maybe if someone submitted rough drafts, I could help flesh them out & make them understandable to a beginner.

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #96 –
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch
I guess what I'm saying is that (to me) it isn't worth the frustration... IMHO by creating & maintaining these forums you've done all you can do.
Advertise! Branch out! Always think of new, better, more convincing, and simpler explanations. Look at some of 2BDecided's posts and papers, and you'll see that it's possible to clearly and understandably describe the fundamentals of psychoacoustic audio compression.

Find an audio clip where one codec visibly throws out more information but audibly sounds much better, and use that in an "audio myths" webpage. Ask a marketing professional how to gracefully tell someone that they've been completely wrong about something they were sure about. I don't believe in "having done all you can do," because that attitude would have left us with just the ISO MP3 implementation... if that, even!

But fewtch, you are completely right about trying to confront stubborn people. It's not worth the frustration, and it's not productive. You will not convince a single person to believe you by simply telling them that they're totally wrong and that their ideas should be shoved into a rocket and shot into space. You have to kindly lead them to water and hope they're thirsty

One good first step would be to publish some definitive guides here on HA, which I know are in the works. The FAQs will need to empower their readers, so a newbie can come to the site and feel that they're high and mighty because they've learned The Truth. A "myths" section needs to make people feel good when they realize they were wrong about using spectroanalysis and original-waveform-subtraction to judge quality, not make them feel stupid.

I also believe that it's possible to write an introduction to audio coding that's understandable by grandparents, thorough enough to be a one-stop-shop for making compressed audio, basic enough to act as a stepping stone for deeper understanding of the technology, and interesting and short enough to keep the attention of a 12-year-old.

A second step would be to hack into the Google servers and reroute "mp3 quality" searches to HA...

EDIT: Haha, I just read fewtch's edited post above mine, and it says almost exactly the same thing! Great minds think alike!

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #97 –
This is the main reason why I never got into audio processing (compared to video processing)! Politics, bickering, personal insults, yadda,yadda,yadda...

Back then, when I found R3mix I was amazed, at last a site with people that had a much greater knowledge than me. At last a site, where I couldn't find quotes like: "Audiograbber iz kewl"... BUT, then I saw the forum  .

After the censor incident I switched over to HA, only to notice that it is the same here (not censoring, but politics).

Some recommandations:

a) erase all users and make anonymous login possible so you can never have a agenda about person x (you can but you'll not know  )

b) see a)



BTW, r3mix's preset was a big help in the MP3 scene, it is better than 99% of the default settings. The fact that r3mix tuned the preset for his own hearing is his own thing (how he "sells" it is another  ). Now, Dibrom's APS is better, so what's the point? Tommorow, maybe person x, will make a preset that is better than Dibrom's, if so will Dibrom's preset be worse than it is today?

And so on.

BTW, in the last few weeks (months?) a very similar trend is happening in the video conversion "scene", much politics and personal agendas, less working, thinking and talking about old/mew methods.

End note: This posting is not directed to anyone specific here, I've only wrote some of my thoughts.

All the best and take care,

Mijo.
"Stop making me older, start making me new"

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #98 –
I first found r3mix.net, and was thrilled to think that I could really do better than the Xing encoder ... I was highly unimpressed with Xing output even at 192-256kbps, and after looking at the graphs on r3mix I felt I could tell why.

I used --r3mix religiously on my LAME+EAC combo for a long time, and introduced a fair number of newbies to the site and LAME as well.  I finally embarked on my project to rip all the CDs in the house and encode them to LAME using --r3mix.

Then I discovered --alt-preset (fast) standard.  Same encoding speed, some space penalty, but WOW, an audible difference even through cheap speakers!  (I was stunned not to have to boost the treble section of my RioVolt's amp to maximum to get decent-sounding midranges and highs!)  I bit the bullet and redid all the 50-100 CDs I had done in --r3mix in --apfs.

Unfortunately, I tried to convince one of the newbies that I had led to --r3mix that there was a better way (--apfs) and failed more or less completely :mad:  It was the same result I had gotten when I had tried to convince someone who had ripped all his CDs at home and encoded with Xing 128CBR.  Inertia had set in and they didn't want to revisit encoding, despite their considering themselves to be somewhat concerned with sound/music quality, and thinking that as a result mp3s could never be for "any kind of serious listening."

So I don't know what it is - possibly the force of the bombast on r3mix - but for some reason, when newbies get convinced there, they get STUCK there too

I wish I could figure out why that happens.  Maybe then I could do something about it!

(And, frankly, if I had a portable player that played Ogg, I'd consider it.  It's only my hardware limitations that keep me with mp3 right now - well, that, how common it is, and that --apfs sounds pretty darn good to me  )

Is this r3mix.net?

Reply #99 –
Quote
Well, the reason why everyone should encode their music in reasonable quality is because people tend to share their music for others.. Even if you are a person who enjoys music and only download because you want to hear how it sounds before you buy it, you still want good quality... I get discusted with the general audio quality people use, everytime I myself download files just to listen if the music is any good... For them, 128 kbit Xing sounds good, but not for me and it really lowers the "enjoyment factor" of the music which in turn can change my decision of buying the music... (Not that Lame --alt-preset 128 is that bad, but 128 kbit Xing/BladeEnc/Music Match, etc, really are bad...)


No offense but you should encode your music to please yourself and not others.

Quote
Now, Dibrom's APS is better, so what's the point? Tommorow, maybe person x, will make a preset that is better than Dibrom's, if so will Dibrom's preset be worse than it is today?


This is exactly what i believe, someday in this world of infinite possibities one person will come up with something better than Dibrom's -aps, so should you drop all your -aps encodes just because suddenly they're not good enough.  Should Dibrom be forced to close his site or change his beliefs of what "he" thinks is the "Best"?  I think not.  So this all comes to subjectivity.  What is "Perfectly Suitable" for one person may not be "Perfectly Suitable" for another.  Now why dont we put an end to the flame wars and let everyone else use or do what they find "suits" them best.