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Topic: Extreme Ms 0 Vs Extreme Ms 15 (Read 4020 times) previous topic - next topic
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Extreme Ms 0 Vs Extreme Ms 15

I have used musepack for quit a while and since reading the posts on this board - I have learned allot.  I always used --extreme --ms 0 in cdex and when the encoder screen pops up it has radio as the quality setting but a bitrate in the high 190's or low 200's.  I read a post about encoding ac3 (can't remember exactly) and --standard --ms 15 was used.  I searched around to see what the 15 meant - never did find anything.  So I tried the --extreme --ms 15 and now the encoder says exteme but the bit rates are running in the 180's area.  Even more to more to my surprise was the fact that the songs sounded more "alive" - a little better bass and a little clearer highs.  Not easily noticed...the music just sounded better...more to my liking.

Now i am perplexed - why does a lower bit rate song sound more pleasing than the higher bit rate song??  I know that ms 0 is independent coding of channels and ms 1 is normal mid/side coding and ms 2 is enhanced mid/side coding.  Where did 15 come from??  I am assuming that it has something to do with the way the encoder works.

Any info will be greatly appreciated.
Can other numbers be used - like maybe 17 or 8. and what will be the resulting outcome?

Thanks for any and all help.

Extreme Ms 0 Vs Extreme Ms 15

Reply #1 –
--ms 15 is the most enhanced mid/side stereo mode. It's basically unnecessary (--ms 11 is almost all you'll ever need) and just wastes bits.

--ms 0, 1, and 2 are the old modes from mppenc 1.04 and before, I think. The newer encoders have many more modes: 0-6 and 10-15. Basically, higher numbers mean better imaging and high bitrate. But that doesn't mean you should use --ms 15, just as you shouldn't use --quality 10 simply because it has the smallest quantization error.

--ms 0 is supposed to be "broken" and is not recommended for use. That could explain why --ms 15 subjectively sounds better to you. Give --ms 11 a shot. You'll save even more bits and you'll probably think it sounds just like --ms 15. Or you can leave out the --ms switch completely. --xtreme defaults to --ms 12.

Extreme Ms 0 Vs Extreme Ms 15

Reply #2 –
thank you very much.
i need to find a newer manual don't I??
I will try the ms 11.  Bits are not a problem.  large drive and not much on it.

i may even try out standard with the ms 11...i went to extreme because it sounded better than standard but was using ms 0.  I see now that ms 0 was the problem and not the setting.

thanks again

Extreme Ms 0 Vs Extreme Ms 15

Reply #3 –
Quote
thank you very much.
I need to find a newer manual don't I??

Just try mppenc --longhelp.  Although the meaning of the values is not always explained, it give you an idea. It is usually more up-to-date than whatever Manual you can find.
Quote
I may even try out standard with the ms 11...

Well, try without --ms first. And if you think you must, at least never use a value lower than the default for that profile/quality (check the defaults with --verbose)

P.S. note that there is no --ms 14 (it gives you --ms 0 instead), also --ms 2 doesn't work due to a bug (not recommended anyway).
--
Ge Someone
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Extreme Ms 0 Vs Extreme Ms 15

Reply #4 –
is there some sort of --ms "tweak" added in the --braindead profile?

Extreme Ms 0 Vs Extreme Ms 15

Reply #5 –
Hi xbenchman

I once wrote a thread because I was hearing a difference in MPC 1.06 --xtreme (--standard of course too) vs. original. It was rather hard to notice but it was there and I proved myself right in doing successful ABX tests. It was an impression of overall sound, especially stereo imaging and/or treble, hard to define. What helped for me was the use of --ms 15. Suddenly I couldnt distinguish the samples anymore.

With which version were you testing? Could you please also do some ABXing to verify if this problem still persists? I tried again with the newer versions but it is damn difficult for me.

Extreme Ms 0 Vs Extreme Ms 15

Reply #6 –
theduke

If i remember correctly it was version 0.90.  I think.  was playing with it in CDex awhile ago.
was using the recommended settings of standard then tried extreme with ms0.  it sounded better so i stuck with it.  Then I read a thread about converting ac3 wave files to mpc.  That is where the ms 15 showed up.  I checked the manual i had and it said nothing about ms 15 just the standard ms 0 ms 1 ms 2.  I posted a thread and found out that ms0 was not supported.  I tried standard ms12 and WOW it really worked for me. I have been playing with extreme ms12 and i (subjectively) cannot tell the difference.  I have replaygained them all.  I am very happy with the quality of the sound and will stay with extreme ms12.  If i read correctly extreme (quality 6) defaults to ms12. 

the last testing i did i couldn't tell the difference standard or extreme (encoder 1.14 and decoder 1.93J and winamp plugin 097f)  (for my "bad" ears I am quite satisfied)

I hope this helps
thank you for the reply