Hi,

What are the advantage a tube amp has over an EQ? I'm talking about a tube amp designed to color the sound. I have not seriously EQ'ed my setup. The one time I did was with the Foobar app and I made it sound worse.  I'm talking more specifically about tube amps for headphones.

What are the advantage a tube amp has over an EQ? I'm talking about a tube amp designed to color the sound. I'm talking more specifically about tube amps for headphones.

Quote from: Dark_wizzie on 2014-09-29 23:31:30

What are the advantage a tube amp has over an EQ? I'm talking about a tube amp designed to color the sound. I'm talking more specifically about tube amps for headphones.

Specifically, what is the advantage of a headphone tube amp designed to color the sound?

I give up, what is it?

I was wondering if there was any point in getting a colored amp instead of an EQ. I understand the disadvantages, I wonder if there are any advantages at all.
Is EQ something that's pretty hard to use? Like... dragging a few sliders on Foobar won't cut it kind of deal.

Is EQ something that's pretty hard to use? Like... dragging a few sliders on Foobar won't cut it kind of deal.

Quote from: Dark_wizzie on 2014-09-30 00:39:41

I was wondering if there was any point in getting a colored amp instead of an EQ. I understand the disadvantages, I wonder if there are any advantages at all.
Is EQ something that's pretty hard to use? Like... dragging a few sliders on Foobar won't cut it kind of deal.

They don't really do the same thing.  A tube 'effect' amp might apply a slightly different frequency response than a normal amp, but the difference is mostly about nonlinear effects and distortions, while an EQ is only linear effects.

"Color" can mean anything.  I wouldn't expect it to be related to frequency response/EQ, but who knows.   

Sometimes it means "pleasant sounding distortion".    This is a broad generalization, but tube amps tend clip more softly than solid state amps.  That is when you drive them into distortion,  the waves are rounded-over instead of being chopped-off square like a typical solid state amp.  This is one reason guitar players often prefer tube amps...  They like the way they sound when overdriven.  But guitar players are producing sounds and they are distorting only the guitar.    With sound reproduction, we usually want accuracy instead of added distortion.  And, any distortion in the playback system will be added to all of the vocals & instruments. 

A "high-fidelity" amp should be "faithful" to the original signal.  That is, it shouldn't color or change the signal an any way except to amplify it.

If an amp has color it may have color you like or color you don't like, or maybe you like a pure high-fidelity signal.  If you are thinking about buying an amp with a reputation for color, you should probably listen to the amp to see if you like the particular color or not before buying.

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Is EQ something that's pretty hard to use? Like... dragging a few sliders on Foobar won't cut it kind of deal.

What???

EQ can be used in different ways.    You can use it to alter the sound the way you like...  That's easy...  If you like a lot of bass, crank-up the bass with the EQ.    Some more modern rap & pop recordings have boom-boom one-note bass the I find annoying and I'll turn-down the bass.

Or, it can be used to correct for frequency errors in your speakers or room (or headphones).    That's a little trickier unless you measure the frequency response of the speakers in your room.    But if you feel like the highs are too harsh or something's wrong in the midrange, it's OK to take a stab at it by ear.

Or, it can be to correct recordings.    I find that vinyl from the 60's &  70's is often a little dull on the high-end and I'll sometimes add +3 to +6dB of high frequency boost.    You shouldn't generally need a lot of EQ. 

Even a little digital boost can drive the digital data into clipping/distortion.  So, it's generally best to cut the frequencies that are too strong rather than boost the frequencies that are too weak.    If you are (digitally) boosting by +6dB on all of your recordings, you are probably distorting.    If you boost the bass only on the tracks where it's weak, there is less risk of clipping.

You can also clip your analog amp or overload your speaker with too much boost.  If you are boosting at 30Hz and your speaker only goes down to 50Hz, you are waste a lot of power on stuff you can't hear and you'll probably get distortion.

What is a linear effect, and does this justify somebody getting a tube amp if they really want the distortion a tube amp offers?

So, for EQing... increasing the db by too much causes clipping, but are there any negatives for decreasing the db too much in EQ?

Hi,

What are the advantage a tube amp has over an EQ?

I'm talking about a tube amp designed to color the sound.

I have not seriously EQ'ed my setup.

The one time I did was with the Foobar app and I made it sound worse.

I'm talking more specifically about tube amps for headphones.

What is a linear effect, and does this justify somebody getting a tube amp if they really want the distortion a tube amp offers?

I was wondering if there was any point in getting a colored amp instead of an EQ.

I understand the disadvantages, I wonder if there are any advantages at all.

Is EQ something that's pretty hard to use? Like... dragging a few sliders on Foobar won't cut it kind of deal.

What are the advantage a tube amp has over an EQ?

I give up, what is it?

I was wondering if there was any point in getting a colored amp instead of an EQ. I understand the disadvantages, I wonder if there are any advantages at all.
Is EQ something that's pretty hard to use? Like... dragging a few sliders on Foobar won't cut it kind of deal.

I'm not buying a tube amp, lol. I'm sticking with my O2.

My original attempt at EQing went quite badly.

I think I should let somebody else explain a linear effect, but what a tube amp does that an EQ doesn't do is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distortion#Harmonic_distortion
It's a question of whether or not one wants accuracy or an effect that they presumably find pleasing. As you know, many people like the way some tube amps change the sound, and the harmonic distortion added is a big part of that. They often say it can make things sound "thicker," "warmer," and other subjectively pleasing adjectives. It could also have a negative effect on some music and a positive effect on other music. Tube amps tend to be on the pricy side though, so you are paying a premium for technically inferior performance. But if someone likes the sound and the price and inaccuracy don't bother them, it's their decision. Same as with vinyl. Obviously, lots of audiophiles make that choice. The objectionable part is when a lot of them will then say that it's actually more accurate than a solid state amp, which is measurably ridiculous.


Worse signal-to-noise ratio. With foobar, the DSP chain is 32-bit floating point so it's not losing any quality digitally, but you will have to turn your speakers/headphones up higher to compensate for the lower volume which, depending on your system and amount of volume cut, could bring noise into the audible range. Note that the Advanced Limiter DSP could be used to mitigate distortion while EQing as well, so you might not have to turn it down as low as you would otherwise.

One big problem with using amps to color the sound is that they are not adjustable to the needs of the situation at hand. They are a fixed-adjusted prepackaged solution in a world that often cries out for and can easily receive well-tuned custom solutions.

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The one time I did was with the Foobar app and I made it sound worse.

That is your fault. Just goes to show that good tools can't make a good mechanic out of an inexperienced amateur. 

For your typical inexperienced and untrained audiophile to try to equalize his system by ear is like buying a set of Craftsman wrenches and hoping to immediately fix the electronic engine controls on your new car.

For openers, most audiophiles at best can only know that they don't like how their audio system sounds. Most wouldn't know a good sounding system if it bit them in the earlobes and drew blood. How many know what real voices and musical instruments even sound like? How many know which recordings portray voices and instruments in a recognizable way?

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I'm talking more specifically about tube amps for headphones.

First, learn how to listen.

There are two kinds of distortion; Linear distortion and nonlinear distortion.  There are a grand total of three distinctly different kinds of bad things that happen to audio.

The three bad things are the two kinds of distortion plus irrelevant noises. Hiss and hum are two common examples of irrelevant noises that end up in audio signals.

Linear distortion is distortion that changes the relationship between the sounds that make up the music, either timing or relative strength or loudness, but does not add any new sounds.

A good equalizer only adds linear distortion.

Nonlinear distortion is distortion that adds new sounds. As a consequence nonlinear distortion may also change the relationships between the sounds that make up the music.

Only you could answer that definitively. Many possibilities. SFX boxes (with tubes) can impart colorations that are dynamic in nature, not just FR tailoring, which is what you get with EQ.
Btw, "tubes" do not automatically impart coloration. They can be incorporated into a design to do just so, whether by intent (Engineering), or happenstance (Audiophile "Engineering").

Quote from: Dark_wizzie on 2014-09-30 00:39:41

I understand the disadvantages, I wonder if there are any advantages at all.

If you like maple syrup on your waffles...and steaks, salads, potatoes, etc, then sure, it could be an advantage.

Quote from: Dark_wizzie on 2014-09-30 00:39:41

Is EQ something that's pretty hard to use? Like... dragging a few sliders on Foobar won't cut it kind of deal.

No. But I would question what it is you are EQing? The headphones, or each track?

cheers,

AJ

I use EQ to compensate for some high-level hearing loss. I can just about get back some of those high tinkly bits. Is it hard? Well, I wouldn't last long in a recording-studio control room, but to achieve basic tone control is not so difficult, not is it hard to find and accentuate vocals, for instance, if that is what you want to do. In piano terms, I'm a guy picking out a basic melody with one finger.

My experience so far is that one starts making huge corrections all over the place, and after a while find oneself using just two or three sliders and moving them less. It also doesn't take too long to learn how to do stuff like cutting out a buzz at AC frequency in some ancient recording you really want to hear.
It's so much easier in software. You can just change stuff and see the result as you hear it.

Engineers can put numbers to notes, which is how they know which slider to move. We all have to start somewhere: This Interactive Frequency Guide is a good place.

1) higher output impedance causes peaks in the frequency response where there are peaks in the headphone's impedance curve
2) non-flat frequency response (there might be a slight boost in the highs, a few dB roll-off at 20 kHz, 20 Hz)
=> reproducible with EQ

3) overall higher harmonic distortion (0.x% to over 1%) across the audible range
4) rising distortion toward the low end (can easily be 2% at 20 Hz), sometimes also at the high end
=> roughly reproducible with exciter plugin

5) some tube amps exhibit a low SNR
=> add some noise to your tracks (EQ the noise to have peaks at 50/60, 100/120 Hz ... and maybe rise towards the high end)

--

To really accurately reproduce the experience we'd need detailed measurements of the amp and load (headphones, speakers ..).

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My original attempt at EQing went quite badly.

Well...  It's easier to break stuff with a hammer than it is to build stuff with a hammer! 

But, an EQ isn't hard to use.  Just move the sliders and listen to the results.  If it makes an improvement, good.  If it makes it worse, put it back to where it was.  If it sounds better with the EQ set to flat, great you don't need any EQ!!! 

It only gets tricky if you are using the EQ to get more accurate sound.  In that case, you need to know exactly what's wrong before you can fix it.

I get a kick out of knowing my headphone system sounds more accurate -

Hmmm, which is it, should I be EQing the headphones or each track?

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I get a kick out of knowing my headphone system sounds more accurate -

You have HD800's, right?    Those should be very accurate without EQ.  It's OK to use a little EQ to adjust to your taste or to adjust some less-than-perfect recordings, but you shouldn't need a lot of EQ unless you like tons of bass or something like that.

Headphones are somewhat difficult to measure because of the way the headphone interacts with the ear, but there is some agreement about what makes a good headphone.  There was a thread about that awhile back, but I couldn't find it.

You really can't measure your headphones "at home" the way you can measure a room & speakers.       

Once you get above maybe $200 or $300 you can get some very good headphones and you might prefer the $200 headphone a $500 or more headphone.    You can get to a point where you can't say that one headphone is better than another and it just becomes a matter of taste & preference.  I'm not saying that all $200 or $300 headphones are that good, but some are.

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Hmmm, which is it, should I be EQing the headphones or each track?

It depends on what problem you are trying to solve...  If you find yourself EQing most of your tracks it's probably not the music/recordings (unless you are listening to a bunch of old recordings).  Your headphones may "need" some adjustment or maybe you'd prefer headphones with a different sound.

Or, maybe there's nothing "wrong" and it's just your taste and you like a little "extra" bass, or a little brighter sound, or a slightly "smoothed-off" high end, etc.

If you find that 20 percent or so of your recordings can use some improvement, then you can EQ the individual tracks as needed.    These could be older or poorly-produced recordings, or perhaps the producer (or mixing/mastering engineer) just has a different concept of what "sounds good".    If 80 percent of your recordings sound best with no EQ, I guess there's nothing wrong with your setup!

Hey, people are free to believe whatever they want. I'm usually just pointing out that their comparisons are highly biased*, but if a headphone tube amp makes them happy and they don't care about EQ, exciter/tube amp simulation plugins ... then go for it!

I prefer accurate reproduction, because that is what high fidelity is about, but everyone has different preferences. It's not like tube amps absolutely destroy sound quality, but they can have a clearly audible effect on it.


*) a huge problem in audio

Then... as I've asked to others before... is it possible for somebody to not care about the price of a tube amp, want the distortion of a tube amp, and not want to do all that to try to add in EQ? Given their set of opinions... tube amps could make sense?
Few people can obtain accurate, detailed measurements on their amp and load.

Can you stop going off on me?

I don't think an EQ alone can do what a tube amp does. Then again, different tube amps may perform completely differently:
there are tube amps with low output impedance, distortion ... the "good" tube amps if you will,
there are also tube amps with high output impedance but low-ish distortion ...
and then there are tube amps that have high output impedance, high distortion, wonky frequency response ...

But hearing differences can be as simple as ignoring, for example, that the tube amp has much higher gain and therefore sounds louder => better. As I said bias is a huge problem.