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Topic: Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard (Read 11319 times) previous topic - next topic
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Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Hi guys

My setup is:

Stanton ST150 TT, RCA > Phono Preamp
Phono Preamp, RCA > Audiophile 2496 RCA Input on soundcard.

Need your advice on correct settings for this please?

I record with audacity and have been recommended to use ASIO with audacity as per a very decent guide i found online.

So could someone please tell me what would need tweaking in these settings in order for me to record my music from the turntable.

Here is a screenshot:

I'm just a bit confused as to what they all mean but its been suggested i rip at 96 / 24.

Can someone help me adjust the settings please?

Thank you 

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #1 –
I would use 48k (or maybe 44.1k if you intend to use a portable device) and 24 bit.  You're not using sp/dif so you don't need to change its settings.  Adjust the levels so that you're not too quiet but aren't clipping.

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #2 –
Quote from: saratoga on
I would use 48k (or maybe 44.1k if you intend to use a portable device) and 24 bit.  You're not using sp/dif so you don't need to change its settings.  Adjust the levels so that you're not too quiet but aren't clipping.


Thanks for the reply but would i need to adjust the levels when i have gain control button on the preamp?

If i do need to adjust the levels which levels should i be adjusting? (sorry if it seems a silly question its all quite new to me) would it be the level which says: H/W in 1/2?

Also what is the 'Stereo link' option meaning at the bottom of each level meter? shd they be enabled too?

Thanks

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #3 –
Quote
I record with audacity and have been recommended to use ASIO with audacity as per a very decent guide i found online.
Audacity doesn't support ASIO as officially distributed, for legal/licensing reasons.  You can compile it with ASIO yourself if you have the compiler and know how to do that, or maybe you can find an ASIO version somewhere online.

You shouldn't need ASIO.  The main advantage of ASIO is low latency (low delay).  A few milliseconds of delay is not a problem  when you're digitizing LPs.  Low latency is useful when you are singing/speaking while monitoring yourself on headphones. 

You should be able to get good sound with the regular Windows drivers.    If you want to use ASIO and you can't get Audacity to work with those drivers, you may need to get a proper ASIO application.

Quote
Thanks for the reply but would i need to adjust the levels when i have gain control button on the preamp?
It's probably best to start with the analog gain control on the preamp.    That way you can be sure you are not overloading the analog-to-digital converter in your soundcard.

I always double-check the levels after recording.  Audacity can show clipping, or you can run Audacity's Amplify effect to check the peaks.  Amplify will default to the gain required for 0dB peaks.    i.e. If Amplify defaults to +1dB, your peaks are currently at -1dB.  If it defaults to 0dB, your peaks are already 0dB and are probably clipped and you need "take two" at lower volume.

I think you'll need to check the user manual for your 2496 to find out what all those settings mean...
Quote
...H/W in 1/2?
I'm going to guess that's correct...  Hardware  inputs (RCA?) 1 & 2 (for left & right).

Quote
Also what is the 'Stereo link' option meaning at the bottom of each level meter? shd they be enabled too?
Again just guessing, but that might mean a stereo recording rather than a multi-track recording where several of the inputs are recorded separately as mono tracks.

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #4 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
I record with audacity and have been recommended to use ASIO with audacity as per a very decent guide i found online.
Audacity doesn't support ASIO as officially distributed, for legal/licensing reasons.  You can compile it with ASIO yourself if you have the compiler and know how to do that, or maybe you can find an ASIO version somewhere online.  You shouldn't need ASIO.  The main advantage of ASIO is low latency (low delay).  A few milliseconds of delay is not a problem  when you're digitizing LPs.  Low latency is useful when you are singing/speaking while monitoring yourself on headphones.    You should be able to get good sound with the regular Windows drivers.    If you want to use ASIO and you can't get Audacity to work with those drivers, you may need to get a proper ASIO application.


AFAIK, Windows version of Audacity still does not support 24-bit recordings w/o ASIO ... so, if that's the target resolution with Audacity, ASIO version is a must.

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #5 –
I'd push back on the 24/96 requirement for vinyl ripping. 16/44 or 16/48 is plenty. http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Myths_(Vinyl)

Unfortunately, audiophile forums (except this one , natch) and illicit trading communities have a tremendous amount of folklore, unscientific reasoning, and egos behind their recommendations and policies—standing inertia that's impossible to overcome. 

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #6 –
You can't change the analogue input level on the M-audio 2496. Those sliders just attenuate the signal in the digital domain, i.e. after it's been converted from analogue to digital at a fixed level. There's no point using them.

If the signal is clipping, you need to attenuate it before you feed it to the sound card. If the signal is too low, you need to boost it before you feed it to the sound card. Depends on the record itself, the cartridge and the pre-amp.

I wouldn't worry about the signal being a little low, but you should avoid clipping.

If you set the recording source in your audio software to be M-Audio H/W in 1/2, the control panel mixer won't do anything anyway because your software takes the source direct. That's what you should do. If you set the recording source in your audio software to M-audio monmix or monitormixer then you get the output from that control panel mixer, which depending on the settings can combine several sources and attenuate them (digitally). That's not normally what you want, though it's useful sometimes.

Cheers,
David.

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #7 –
Some very useful replies there so thanks to everyone.

Also ive noticed another problem now!

I ordered online some Hosa Beatport RCA cables (theyre good quality and were quite pricey) problem is though they are very difficult to push onto the RCA sockets. I'm very concerned that ive damaged something on either the TT RCA port, The Preamp RCA port or the soundcard RCA port. Because i had to use almost my full strength just to push a connector on and since then when i look at my VU meter lines on audacity one seems more higher peak than the other. Ive tried so many things from different RCA cables. Its not a huge difference... This is a real pain because i suppose im now gonna have to take all my equipment apart arent i and test each RCA port with a meter to see if one was damaged...

I'm wondering if maybe a tip of an RCA cable got dirty (im hoping thats all it is) if so can i put 99.8% alcohol on all RCA ports and RCA cable tips to clean them off? Or do you not recommend that?

I did try one thing though... I ruled out the preamp completely and went straight from th TT to the Soundcard through RCA cable (Selected the line option on back of the TT) i noticed that those VU meter levels were a LITTLE bit more even. But then I tried a recording from vinyl using this method and was surprised to see the input volume levels were about 75% on VU meter which made me think do i even need a preamp if sound is coming through to the PC at that volume?
Because i thought the whole reason of the preamp was just to adjust gain levels but it seems when using the TT direct to the soundcard through RCA the gain level seems ok.... Or do you still suggest i use a preamp and if so, why?

Thanks for your replies again

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #8 –
You have to use a phono preamp.  Records are not cut "flat;" they are cut with the bass severely reduced and treble boosted by design.  The phono preamp follows the RIAA curve EQ to boost the bass and cut the treble to cancel out the LP EQ and match the original recording.  The phono preamp also boosts volume since phono cartridges have very low output.

You could try switching the cables around to see if your imbalance comes from the turntable.  Is your cartridge properly aligned?  Have you tried different records to make sure it's not that particular record which is imbalanced?

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #9 –
Quote from: gottogo99 on
You could try switching the cables around to see if your imbalance comes from the turntable.  Is your cartridge properly aligned?  Have you tried different records to make sure it's not that particular record which is imbalanced?



Sorry i forgot to mention actually... these lines on the VU meter are like this even with the TT turned off.

What else do you think i should do?

Thanks

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #10 –
As far as I can see, the Stanton ST150 has a switchable line/phono output, which means it doesn't need a pre-amp. It also has an SPDIF output, which means you can connect it directly into the digital input of your sound card.

Which sounds better: phono output to pre-amp, line output to line input, or digital output to digital input - well, you'll have to try.

You didn't need to spend a fortune on cables.

I wouldn't expect a turntable to have a perfect match between both channels. If you play a mint condition mono record and it's all set-up properly, it should be closer than 1dB. If it's a stereo record, the signals on both channels are different anyway.

Cheers,
David.

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #11 –
Oh ok so i dont need to use the preamp even though the fella on the previous thread said:

"You have to use a phono preamp. Records are not cut "flat;" they are cut with the bass severely reduced and treble boosted by design. The phono preamp follows the RIAA curve EQ to boost the bass and cut the treble to cancel out the LP EQ and match the original recording. The phono preamp also boosts volume since phono cartridges have very low output."

Or i guess my turntable is different right and i can therefore skip a preamp?

Thanks

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #12 –
yes it is different

Quote
The ST-150 is, in spirit, the successor to the acclaimed Technics SL-1200, but with critical changes. A built-in phono preamp and a digital S/PDIF output distinguish it from it's older cousin, adding connectivity options to meet the demands of a more modern market

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #13 –
Fantastic!

Because i was very close to buying a new preamp because i thought the other was no use....

So can i now just select the 'line' option on the TT and go direct through RCA to the soundcard RCA inputs and start recording?

Thanks

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #14 –
Quote from: MartyK on
So can i now just select the 'line' option on the TT and go direct through RCA to the soundcard RCA inputs and start recording?

You can, but if your sound card has S/PDIF input then you should also consider using that instead.

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #15 –
For some reason... someone once suggested i shouldn't use SPDIF but i cant remember why!

Have you got any idea as to why they were suggesting it?

It could be because maybe something to do with it doubling to mono channel or something and making a stereo of 2 monos?? lol...

What is it that makes S/PDIF a better option than going into the Analogue RCA ports?

Thanks for the quick response

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #16 –
Quote from: MartyK on
What is it that makes S/PDIF a better option than going into the Analogue RCA ports?

It's not necessarily "better", just different.  At some point in your recording chain you need an analog-to-digital converter.  When you use the S/PDIF connection you are using the ADC in the turntable; when you use the analog connection you're using the ADC in the sound card.  In all likelihood they will each have their own sound character and you need to decide which you prefer.  Also, if you are intent on recording 24/96 you pretty much have to use the sound card ADC.  I know of no turntable with an internal ADC capable of greater than 16/44.

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #17 –
Im with you... ok then ill give SPDIF a go and listen to it compared to using a preamp and decide what I think sounds the best.

Thank you!

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #18 –
Quote
Im with you... ok then ill give SPDIF a go and listen to it compared to using a preamp and decide what I think sounds the best.
The ONLY thing I'd be concerned with is noise.  You've got a really good soundcard, so the most likely source of any electrical noise is the preamp.  Apparently, you've got a preamp built-into the turntable as well as a stand-alone preamp, so you can compare them if you wish.    The trick is to make sure the gains match, because it's the signal-to-noise ratio that's important, not the absolute noise level.

But the biggest source of noise is the analog record itself, so hopefully electrical noise isn't even an issue.  Unless something is defective, or or unless you've got a super-cheap phono cartridge (which you don't), the record itself is ALWAYS the weakest link.

Quote
I ordered online some Hosa Beatport RCA cables (theyre good quality and were quite pricey)  problem is though they are very difficult to push onto the RCA sockets.
Well... That was a silly thing to do!  ... As long as the cables are shielded and not defective or corroded, etc.,  cables are not critical.  If you live in the U.S., Monoprice sells heavy-duty cables for VERY reasonable prices (and standard cables for even less).  The heavy duty cables won't sound any better but they are more rugged and they look good!   

Quote
...when i look at my VU meter lines on audacity one seems more higher peak than the other. Ive tried so many things from different RCA cables. Its not a huge difference...
Welcome to the analog world!    ...That could be normal.  It's unlikely to be a bad connection unless one channel is horrible.  If there is a bad/flaky connection, usually wiggling the connectors will make it better or worse and it should be obvious.

The left & right channels of a phono cartridge are never exactly matched, and of course different records will be different too...  If all of your records seem high on the same channel, I'd say it's something in your playback system.    I wouldn't expect the peak levels to be the same.  The average levels should be about the same, but the most important thing is that it sounds balanced.   

If one channel sounds a couple of dB louder, that's easy to adjust in Audacity (after recording).  GoldWave (a commercial "competitor" to Audacity) has a "Max/Match" tool that matches the average left & right levels while normalizing (maximizing) the peaks.  After running this tool and matching the averages, typically only one channel will have maximized peaks (since the peak-to-average ratio is usually different in each channel).    Although the average level correlates with loudness better than the peak level, it's not always perfect either.  So, this isn't something you should unless you thinking there is really an imbalance.

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #19 –
Iirc there's one turntable with spdif output where you can't adjust the level and it often clips. No idea which one.

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #20 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
I wouldn't worry about the signal being a little low, but you should avoid clipping.

Most of the small number of soundcards I've used over the years have had some kind of built-in limiter which appears to kick in around -3 dB, so I aim for -3 dB peaks. Some guides advise getting closer to 0 dB or normalizing (boosting volume) to get those peaks, but other than making it competitively loud, there's no point in doing that (especially for ReplayGain users), and an increased risk of clipping during playback due to "inter-sample overs" which isn't something worth explaining here. Another advantage is the music compresses better.

Quote from: DVDdoug on
But the biggest source of noise is the analog record itself, so hopefully electrical noise isn't even an issue.  Unless something is defective, or or unless you've got a super-cheap phono cartridge (which you don't), the record itself is ALWAYS the weakest link.

I disagree. Due to shoddy household wiring, I get audible ground loops with harmonics that rise well above the background whoosh of vinyl rushing past the needle, loud enough to interfere with the quieter parts of the music. I've been able to minimize it by keeping everything (and I do mean everything: computer, network and audio gear) all plugged into one particular outlet. If you hear about my house burning down, keep this on the down-low!

As for balance correction, I used to just do a simple gain adjustment in one channel, but I found that it's better to make the changes via EQ, because with my cartridge, the imbalance is mainly in the bass. I've tried all kinds of physical adjustments to get rid of it, to no avail.

Just a few things to watch/listen for...

Help needed on vinyl ripping with M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard

Reply #21 –
Quote from: mjb2006 on
Due to shoddy household wiring, I get audible ground loops with harmonics that rise well above the background whoosh of vinyl rushing past the needle, loud enough to interfere with the quieter parts of the music.


That is generally a correctable problem.

Quote
I've been able to minimize it by keeping everything (and I do mean everything: computer, network and audio gear) all plugged into one particular outlet. If you hear about my house burning down, keep this on the down-low!


That's a good move, but not the only possible one. It is unlikely that you are going to overload a competent house circuit with the equipment required to transcribe LPs.

Ideally the noise floor of LP playback is utterly dominated by surface noise from the LP.  Reducing hum to an inaudible level is IME a reasonable goal.