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Topic: Dynamic Range and digitally remastered CDs (Read 5085 times) previous topic - next topic
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Dynamic Range and digitally remastered CDs

Forgive my naivety on the subject of DR, but as I was browsing the DR database and looking at the dynamic range of newer digitally remastered version of some older CDs, and a question came to mind.

Is it possible to digitally remaster an old analog recording, have it come up with a lower DR value, yet not be compressed with the loudness cranked up?

My thinking (which is probably wrong, but it's what's in my head now) is that there may be background noise of some kind or some other analog imperfections that might add to the DR value the foobar2000 plugin generates that cause the plugin to think that the DR value of the music has gone down when digital cleanup has occurred, when in fact it really hasn't?

I guess another way to ask is, can analog imperfections cause a erroneously high dynamic range?

Looking for the collective expertise to educate me on this.

Dynamic Range and digitally remastered CDs

Reply #1 –
DR value = "the average cumulative difference between peak and loudness (RMS) over a specific period of time (duration of a song or album) and is a whole number value given in decibels. Just the top 20% of the loudness are taken into consideration" as per http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/en/our-aim (would be nice if they gave more details or open-sourced their code...)

Any remastering can affect the peak or the RMS. We have already discussed this: http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=102895

Dynamic Range and digitally remastered CDs

Reply #2 –
Quote
Is it possible to digitally remaster an old analog recording, have it come up with a lower DR value, yet not be compressed
No.  If you've reduced the dynamic range you've dynamically compressed the audio.  You can unintentionally get compression with clipping (overload distortion).  In the analog days, it was fairly common practice to push tape onto saturation (slightly or briefly) which is compression.

Quote
yet not be compressed with the loudness cranked up?
You can compress without increasing loudness.  You can reduce dynamic range either by making quiet parts louder or loud parts quieter...  Typically, the peaks are "pushed down" and then "make-up" gain is used to push-up the loudness.

Quote
My thinking (which is probably wrong, but it's what's in my head now) is that there may be background noise of some kind or some other analog imperfections that might add to the DR value the foobar2000 plugin generates that cause the plugin to think that the DR value of the music has gone down when digital cleanup has occurred, when in fact it really hasn't?

I guess another way to ask is, can analog imperfections cause a erroneously high dynamic range?


Dynamic range can be defined a couple of ways.    Noise limits the dynamic range by limiting the quiet-end.    Noise reduction can improve dynamic range but it doesn't "improve" the dynamics of the music.  Musicians call it dynamic contrast.   

A loud click on an analog record can give you a higher DR reading if the click/defect is the loudest part.

Dynamic Range and digitally remastered CDs

Reply #3 –
Just putting 2 and 2 together...

Quote from: apastuszak on
can analog imperfections cause a erroneously high dynamic range?

Quote from: mjb2006 on
http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=102895

The answer, of course, is yes, though much of the problem lies in the algorithm people are accepting with utter and complete blind faith.

...and no, I don't have any other solutions other than judicious use of research and critical thinking.

Dynamic Range and digitally remastered CDs

Reply #4 –
Quote from: greynol on
though much of the problem lies in the algorithm


Which makes me wonder why no better algorithm has taken over.  It should be easy to improve (that does not say it would be easy to get something good enough).

Dynamic Range and digitally remastered CDs

Reply #5 –
Heh, yes, just add free dynamic range meter algorithms to the list of things that should be easy to improve. Also on that list are playlist formats, the cue sheet format, tag formats, CD rip log formats, EAC's configuration & interface... for each one, there's a number of software developers who really do not want to have to accommodate anyone's "improvements".

Dynamic Range and digitally remastered CDs

Reply #6 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
Is it possible to digitally remaster an old analog recording, have it come up with a lower DR value, yet not be compressed
No.  If you've reduced the dynamic range you've dynamically compressed the audio.  You can unintentionally get compression with clipping (overload distortion).  In the analog days, it was fairly common practice to push tape onto saturation (slightly or briefly) which is compression.
The answer should be no, but isn't no because "DR value" is not synonymous with dynamic range, no matter how well-intentioned the algorithm is.

Quote
You can compress without increasing loudness.  You can reduce dynamic range either by making quiet parts louder or loud parts quieter...  Typically, the peaks are "pushed down" and then "make-up" gain is used to push-up the loudness.
You can increase loudness by simply making changes to the EQ.

Dynamic Range and digitally remastered CDs

Reply #7 –
I've got what is apparently an example of this. Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab received some criticism online for allegedly applying compression to The Yes Album. The mastering engineer responded by saying that there were some obscure calibration issues with the master tape (which were very likely not compensated for in most, if not all, previous releases), and once that was corrected the waveform came out looking and measuring as compressed as on the final MoFi release and that he did nothing to change that. Here is his full explanation:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=505...e=1&theater
And here is the list of the Dynamic Range Database's entries for The Yes Album:
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?art...m=The+Yes+Album

Dynamic Range and digitally remastered CDs

Reply #8 –
http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=102963

FWIW I also posted this link in the discussion mjb linked earlier.