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Topic: 128kbps Extension Test - FINISHED (Read 73769 times) previous topic - next topic
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128kbps Extension Test - FINISHED

Reply #75 –
Sorry if this gets a bit OT, but I think it's relavent.  I'm wondering if, at this bitrate, vorbis would benefit from use of the lowpass switch.  Many of the comments complained of the high-frequency noise or brightness of the vorbis samples.  While I realize that doing a lowpass isn't the inverse of the high-frequency problem with vorbis, it may help tone down the percieved brightness a bit while at the same time, saving bits that may help with other artifacts (i.e. a higher -q level could be used to achieve the same average bitrate).

Thoughts?  Comments?  Flames?
I am *expanding!*  It is so much *squishy* to *smell* you!  *Campers* are the best!  I have *anticipation* and then what?  Better parties in *the middle* for sure.
http://www.phong.org/

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Reply #76 –
Quote
Sorry if this gets a bit OT, but I think it's relavent.  I'm wondering if, at this bitrate, vorbis would benefit from use of the lowpass switch.  Many of the comments complained of the high-frequency noise or brightness of the vorbis samples.  While I realize that doing a lowpass isn't the inverse of the high-frequency problem with vorbis, it may help tone down the percieved brightness a bit while at the same time, saving bits that may help with other artifacts (i.e. a higher -q level could be used to achieve the same average bitrate).

Thoughts?  Comments?  Flames?

I tried to 'tweak' Vorbis by doing that, long time ago. First : bitrate is quite the same (classical music - it may change with louder music). Second : hiss remains, at the same level.

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Reply #77 –
NOTE: What follows is said concerning Korn CD's and them alone, I did not notice such differences in any other CD I have.

Seeing how well WMA seemed to perform in this test, I just have to add something from my own experience (perhaps you may correct a mistake I made somewhere)

First off I used WMA vbr 135 - 215 kbps setting, since I didn't like the size of loosless, and there is nothing that says Pro in WMP XP. Where did you get your encoder from?

In my experience any Korn song which has both base guitar and vocals at the same time, is a killer sample for WMA. The instruments (including the base guitar) are perfect (the bass is gorgeous, I was droolling for like 5min in a trance), but then realization that something is wrong grew in me. Being so amazed about the improvement in bass/drams/guitar performance in WMA over mp3 preset extreme I didn't notice right away that voice of the lead singer was coming from somewhere far-far-away, at times base-guitar would totally cover the voice. It sounded like the mikes were in a room with the instruments, but the singer was in a corridor leading to the room and was singing to the mike from there.
What makes it even more strange is that the voice doesn't seem like it's strained, but in fact it is smooth, clean, and well rehearsed.

So if someone have experienced similar problem in WMA vbr, could you comment if it is something that can be fixed or is it a flaw?

Please tell me it can be fixed, because I tried mp3 extreme, ogg -q6 gt2, and acc QT cbr 192 (or close to it). WMA just has the best bass/drum/base-guitar performance I have heard. others are more ballanced (instruments and voice are on equal level) but a lot of Korn music is based on bass/base guitar, I want that extra kick I get from WMA.
The Plan Within Plans

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Reply #78 –
Quote
First off I used WMA vbr 135 - 215 kbps setting, since I didn't like the size of loosless, and there is nothing that says Pro in WMP XP. Where did you get your encoder from?

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....50&#entry115951

Right now, you're using WMA9 standard, which sounds worse than WMA9Pro.

ff123

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Reply #79 –
Quote
The amount of crap Roberto got just because VBR is, well, variable, would fade into insignificance!

I don't think the problem was so much the VBR as the mix of ABR and VBR modes, like I've said previously (and have not yet had my logic critiqued, hint, hint!  ). Sure, under normal circumstances, there's not much difference, but when you're testing, you should stick to a single methodology.

128kbps Extension Test - FINISHED

Reply #80 –
Hello,

Just as a followup to my mini  discussion with phong last night, I downloaded two
problem samples that people seem to use around here; fatboy.wav and catanets.wav. When I ran the abx tests using just a couple of codecs (.ogg and wma9 pro) in the 128 kbps vbr range, I could FINALLY abx the encoded files from the wav files. Foobar 2000 .667 abx comparator told me probabilty of guessing was between 1.1-3.2 percent. I guess my ears are not as bad as I feared. I still cannot abx "normal" music with the codecs used in the test-so I can STILL sleep better tonight knowing that I can use 128 vbr with just about any codec out there
(never had the "fortune" to have used blade or xing) for portable use
you will make mp3's for compatibility reasons.

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Reply #81 –
Quote
but when you're testing, you should stick to a single methodology.

I sticked to a single methodology. The methodology of using whatever settings that output the best quality for each codec.

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Reply #82 –
Quote
Quote
but when you're testing, you should stick to a single methodology.

I sticked to a single methodology. The methodology of using whatever settings that output the best quality for each codec.

Which is good enough for me.

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Reply #83 –
As well as me. I'm very pleased with the manner in which the test was conducted, and was pleased with the results. Thanks Roberto!
Happiness - The agreeable sensation of contemplating the misery of others.

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Reply #84 –
OT - can we include some build of ATRAC that we can all get ahold of, in future multiformat blind testing?

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Reply #85 –
Yes, if I gather the courage to conduce another 128kbps test.

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Reply #86 –
It would be interesting to compare WMA9Pro VBR in kinda the same bitrate range as MPC Standard.

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Reply #87 –
Quote
and there is nothing that says Pro in WMP XP. Where did you get your encoder from?


dBpowerAMP Music Converter with the WMA 9 Codec.

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Reply #88 –
Quote
NOTE: What follows is said concerning Korn CD's and them alone, I did not notice such differences in any other CD I have.


[snip]

As you probably know, if you're going to get answers to question like this then...

a) show you have ABXed the coded vs original versions,
B) provide a sample, and (in this case)
c) don't expect anyone on this board to be able to apply some nice code-level tweaks to the WMA encoder to help you! ;-)

However, if there are audible problems with lame --alt-preset extreme, we should all take a listen.

Cheers,
David.

128kbps Extension Test - FINISHED

Reply #89 –
Quote
I will add a table with all the bitrates to the results page later today.

unable to locate such table, where is it? tia.
PANIC: CPU 1: Cache Error (unrecoverable - dcache data) Eframe = 0x90000000208cf3b8
NOTICE - cpu 0 didn't dump TLB, may be hung

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Reply #90 –
Quote
Quote
alt-preset standard, vorbis gt3, musepack standard, etc will be tested later

Will they? When? and by who?

Surely not by me. First, because these bitrates are transparent, we would get most of the codecs reaching score 5. Second, because I am only willing to take one other VBR test. The critics on a VBR test are such a PITA that I definitely don't even consider conducing several ones.

Quote
alt-preset standard, vorbis gt3, musepack standard, etc will be tested later, if that would even be a valid or necessary test.


You cut out the most important part of what I said: 
Quote
if that would even be a valid or necessary test.
WARNING:  Changing of advanced parameters might degrade sound quality.  Modify them only if you are expirienced in audio compression!

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Reply #91 –
Quote
a - show you have ABXed the coded vs original versions,
b - provide a sample, and (in this case)
c - don't expect anyone on this board to be able to apply some nice code-level tweaks to the WMA encoder to help you! ;-)

a - first and what exactly stops me from faking those? secod if listening to CD then WMA then mp3 and ogg counts, then yes WMA has more of a CD-type base/drum performance, others are flat (not bad, just no kick after silent moment)
b - sample of copyrighted music?
c - I don't wan't code level tweaks, I was asking where I could get the encoder, since I was clearly using the wrong one.

finally I don't believe I stated that there is a problem with lame preset extreme  what I said is that WMA has a more pronounced bass, but WMA has problem with voice when base is present.
The Plan Within Plans

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Reply #92 –
Quote
b - sample of copyrighted music?

Samples below 30 seconds are allowed by law. (I think. Read forum rules.)
ruxvilti'a

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Reply #93 –
Quote
a - first and what exactly stops me from faking those?

Everybody can do that.
If we ask for ABX test, it isn't really for us, but for you. For exemple, I often had some good feeling (untidy bass, less high frequencies, slight distorsion, some hiss...) when listening directly an encoded file with winamp or foobar. But when I performed a blind comparison, my good feeling and trust disappeared, and I wasn't able to heard something wrong anymore.
That's why ABX test are needed : just to be sure that the problem you noticed really exist.

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Reply #94 –
Quote
unable to locate such table, where is it? tia.

Sorry, it took longer than I expected.

Already up, located just after the individual plots.

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Reply #95 –
rjamorim, can you plz also add a zoomed in picture of the results (skipping blade for this would surely help)
I know, that I know nothing (Socrates)

128kbps Extension Test - FINISHED

Reply #96 –
Done.

I didn't do that before exactly because of Blade, but since it's the anchor anyway...

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Reply #97 –
thanks!

uah, poor lame
btw. faac reached in the aac test 3,52, lame now 3,66 (ok i know that this cant be compared but...  )
I know, that I know nothing (Socrates)

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Reply #98 –
Quote
btw. faac reached in the aac test 3,52, lame now 3,66 (ok i know that this cant be compared but...   )

If I ever compare several MP3 encoders at 128kbps (yes, I'm planning that), I might throw in FAAC just for kicks and giggles :B

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Reply #99 –
Ok doing a simple percentage alignment for any codec over 128Kbps (don't know if that is fair or not, a codec given 64Kbps would be 25% of one given 256Kbps?...):

Adj Result = Result * (128 / Avg Bitrate)

Adjusted Results are  Adj Result  (Previous results):

AAC        4.38      (4.42)
Lame      3.77      (3.66)
MPC        3.95      (4.51)
Vorbis    3.91      (4.28)
WMA Pro  4.30      (4.30)
Blade      2.22      (2.22)


BTW Was WMA Pro encoded as 24 bit 2 channel?  (seems to be the only Pro option that will encode 16bit stereo on mine), if so it would be interesting to feed it 24bit data as opposed 16bit to see if the sound quality improves.

Lies, damn lies and statistics come to mind, in that results can be adjusted up or down...make of it as you will