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CD masters rejected for vinyl production, Split from Topic ID: 99623 (TOS #5)
pisymbol
post Feb 27 2013, 23:52
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Even though I'm walking into a complete flame fest....I would to state something for reaction...

As I understand it, its common practice to use the same master for both CD and vinyl. Cost is the mitigating factor most of the time.

HOWEVER, given the "Loudness War" and the absolutely crappy sounding masters due to hyper compressed music, a lot of labels will not master the vinyl from the original Redbook one, but create a new one that is significantly less compressed. Has nothing to do with bitrate or "analog vs digital" arguments...

And in fact I spoke with one particular label who submitted the original CD master which was rejected by the engineer who is responsible for the vinyl release. He subsequently lowered the amount of DRC applied before sending it to press. This is not unheard of and IMO, one of the key reasons why vinyl can and DOES sound better than CD from time to time. Typically its because the Redbook master was done by an amateur, and the vinyl one was done by a professional.

I also have another example of DDA file getting screwed up and the engineer sending the CD directly to the label for press. Worked just fine that way (there was no LP release).
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db1989
post Feb 28 2013, 00:14
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QUOTE (pisymbol @ Feb 27 2013, 22:52) *
HOWEVER, given the "Loudness War" and the absolutely crappy sounding masters due to hyper compressed music, a lot of labels will not master the vinyl from the original Redbook one, but create a new one that is significantly less compressed. Has nothing to do with bitrate or "analog vs digital" arguments...
It may have nothing to do with those but a lot to do with the physical inability of vinyl to competently reproduce highly brickwalled signals for extended periods of time without risking damage to at least one stage of the playback chain.

QUOTE
And in fact I spoke with one particular label who submitted the original CD master which was rejected by the engineer who is responsible for the vinyl release. He subsequently lowered the amount of DRC applied before sending it to press. This is not unheard of and IMO, one of the key reasons why vinyl can and DOES sound better than CD from time to time. Typically its because the Redbook master was done by an amateur, and the vinyl one was done by a professional.
Typically? Where are the statistics on this? It could just as easily be typically done because the mastering engineer Ė whether professional, amateur, or amateur-masquerading-as-professional Ė was forced by the limitations of vinyl to tone down their otherwise highly excessive compression and limiting.

Sure, this can sometimes result in vinyl sounding better in terms of dynamics. Does that count as an advantage of vinyl? Seeing as itís an indirect and quite possible less-than-voluntary result of a theoretical limitation of the format, nope. And I donít see it as cause for promoting vinyl (not that Iím zealously against it), which would be a spurious conclusion: I see it only as further cause for opposing the loudness war.
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pisymbol
post Feb 28 2013, 13:48
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Feb 27 2013, 18:14) *
QUOTE (pisymbol @ Feb 27 2013, 22:52) *
HOWEVER, given the "Loudness War" and the absolutely crappy sounding masters due to hyper compressed music, a lot of labels will not master the vinyl from the original Redbook one, but create a new one that is significantly less compressed. Has nothing to do with bitrate or "analog vs digital" arguments...
It may have nothing to do with those but a lot to do with the physical inability of vinyl to competently reproduce highly brickwalled signals for extended periods of time without risking damage to at least one stage of the playback chain.

Sure, this can sometimes result in vinyl sounding better in terms of dynamics. Does that count as an advantage of vinyl? Seeing as it’s an indirect and quite possible less-than-voluntary result of a theoretical limitation of the format, nope. And I don’t see it as cause for promoting vinyl (not that I’m zealously against it), which would be a spurious conclusion: I see it only as further cause for opposing the loudness war.


I forgot to respond to that last paragraph...

I am not even close to insinuating that vinyl has some kind of inherit advantage over CD (well in terms of packaging art maybe!).

But that last sentence utterly perplexes me. So you rather BUY CDs that are terribly mastered as a way to send a message to labels and artists to stop the Loudness War? WHAT!?

In fact, I currently believe that most vinyl junkies will freely admit that Redbook is superior and SOUNDs superior IF PROPERLY MASTERED.

While the "state of the art" of digital mastering is light years ahead of what it was say 10-15 years ago, the fact is the overwhelming majority of CDs released today sound like crap. And when there are two different versions of the same release, one highly compressed DR4-5 Redbook, and one DR11-12 LP, it doesn't shock me that folks want the LP and then claim vinyl sounds better than CD.

Bottom line is this: Despite CD's (and more contextually relevant, digital music) superiority in every possible conceivable way, it gets a bad rap at times for poor sound mainly due to poor mastering. Garbage in, garbage out.

NOTE: I personally do not collect LPs.

This post has been edited by pisymbol: Feb 28 2013, 13:49
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krabapple
post Feb 28 2013, 17:46
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QUOTE (pisymbol @ Feb 28 2013, 07:48) *
While the "state of the art" of digital mastering is light years ahead of what it was say 10-15 years ago, the fact is the overwhelming majority of CDs released today sound like crap. And when there are two different versions of the same release, one highly compressed DR4-5 Redbook, and one DR11-12 LP, it doesn't shock me that folks want the LP and then claim vinyl sounds better than CD.


Yes, ignorance of causes and effects is not shocking, but let's not *accept it*, OK?

And you know what? There are *other* audible parameters that might matter as much or more than dynamic range -- parameters in which even the 'crap' CDs that overwhelm us today, perform better than LPs.

This obsession with DR as the be-all of audio quality is starting to annoy the bejebus out of me.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Feb 28 2013, 17:50
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paul46
post Mar 16 2013, 21:01
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QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 28 2013, 17:46) *
QUOTE (pisymbol @ Feb 28 2013, 07:48) *
While the "state of the art" of digital mastering is light years ahead of what it was say 10-15 years ago, the fact is the overwhelming majority of CDs released today sound like crap. And when there are two different versions of the same release, one highly compressed DR4-5 Redbook, and one DR11-12 LP, it doesn't shock me that folks want the LP and then claim vinyl sounds better than CD.


Yes, ignorance of causes and effects is not shocking, but let's not *accept it*, OK?

And you know what? There are *other* audible parameters that might matter as much or more than dynamic range -- parameters in which even the 'crap' CDs that overwhelm us today, perform better than LPs.

This obsession with DR as the be-all of audio quality is starting to annoy the bejebus out of me.


Digital has potential to perform better than vinyl but currently the CD format is 16 bit by 44.1 kHz which allows for only sixty five thousand different volume levels. A vinyl record has limited volume variations based on the master recording which is usually 24 bit by 196 kHz with millions of volume variations. Someone needs to bring that kind of quality to the consumer and then vinyl would be surpassed.
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Posts in this topic
- pisymbol   CD masters rejected for vinyl production   Feb 27 2013, 23:52
- - db1989   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Feb 27 2013, 22:52) HOW...   Feb 28 2013, 00:14
|- - pisymbol   You bring up a good point and that's very true...   Feb 28 2013, 01:47
||- - db1989   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Feb 28 2013, 00:47) QUO...   Feb 28 2013, 19:16
||- - pisymbol   I suggest you go back re-read my statements again ...   Feb 28 2013, 22:25
|- - pisymbol   QUOTE (db1989 @ Feb 27 2013, 18:14) QUOTE...   Feb 28 2013, 13:48
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Feb 28 2013, 07:48) Whi...   Feb 28 2013, 17:46
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 28 2013, 16:46) An...   Mar 1 2013, 10:42
|||- - pisymbol   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 1 2013, 04:42) QUO...   Mar 1 2013, 16:25
|||- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 1 2013, 04:42) QUO...   Mar 1 2013, 16:47
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 28 2013, 11:46) An...   Mar 1 2013, 21:27
||- - paul46   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 28 2013, 17:46) QU...   Mar 16 2013, 21:01
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (paul46 @ Mar 16 2013, 16:01) Digit...   Mar 16 2013, 23:42
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Feb 28 2013, 07:48) Whi...   Feb 28 2013, 23:36
- - greynol   ...assuming they have access to it.   Feb 28 2013, 02:30
- - greynol   Just as annoying is that the expectation bias that...   Feb 28 2013, 18:01
- - db1989   Perhaps I would interpret the points in question d...   Feb 28 2013, 22:49
- - db1989   Except no, because you blatantly have no understan...   Mar 16 2013, 21:19
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 16 2013, 21:19) Excep...   Mar 16 2013, 22:33
|- - paul46   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 16 2013, 22:33) QUOTE...   Mar 17 2013, 05:45
|- - greynol   QUOTE (paul46 @ Mar 16 2013, 21:45) I tho...   Mar 17 2013, 06:25
- - LithosZA   QUOTE Digital has potential to perform better than...   Mar 16 2013, 21:20
|- - paul46   QUOTE (LithosZA @ Mar 16 2013, 21:20) QUO...   Mar 24 2013, 17:19
|- - db1989   QUOTE (paul46 @ Mar 24 2013, 16:19) Isn...   Mar 24 2013, 18:39
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 24 2013, 18:39) QUOTE...   Mar 25 2013, 00:44
|- - paul46   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 25 2013, 00:44) QUOTE...   Mar 25 2013, 03:44
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (paul46 @ Mar 25 2013, 02:44) ... 8...   Mar 25 2013, 10:25
- - db1989   Donít get me wrong: everyone has misconceptions, l...   Mar 16 2013, 22:45
|- - greynol   QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 16 2013, 14:45) QUOTE...   Mar 17 2013, 00:56
- - Engelsstaub   I think if anyone's truly interested in the bi...   Mar 17 2013, 04:44
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Mar 16 2013, 20:44) ...   Mar 17 2013, 06:37
||- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 16 2013, 23:37) QUOT...   Mar 17 2013, 07:44
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Mar 17 2013, 07:44) ...   Mar 17 2013, 10:38
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Mar 16 2013, 20:44) ...   Mar 17 2013, 08:09
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 17 2013, 01:09) ...T...   Mar 17 2013, 08:53
- - greynol   Let's keep in mind that 24/96 and 24/192 is ch...   Mar 17 2013, 08:02
- - DVDdoug   QUOTE I thought compact discs are limited to aroun...   Mar 17 2013, 08:42
|- - db1989   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Mar 17 2013, 07:42) QUOT...   Mar 17 2013, 13:36
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 17 2013, 12:36) This ...   Mar 19 2013, 15:52
|- - greynol   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 19 2013, 07:52) Wi...   Mar 19 2013, 16:14
- - [JAZ]   Isn't this the perfect example where to show M...   Mar 17 2013, 10:49
- - db1989   On-sample, yes, but not every bit of the signal; r...   Mar 19 2013, 18:36
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 19 2013, 17:36) On-sa...   Mar 21 2013, 11:30
|- - db1989   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 21 2013, 10:30) QU...   Mar 21 2013, 13:39
- - greynol   Not unless someone can demonstrate it in a careful...   Mar 24 2013, 17:33
- - greynol   Lest we forget, the discussion is not about Blu-ra...   Mar 25 2013, 04:39
- - db1989   I note how youíre able to reel off another bunch o...   Mar 25 2013, 10:19
- - paul46   QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 25 2013, 10:19) I not...   Mar 26 2013, 05:03
- - greynol   QUOTE (paul46 @ Mar 25 2013, 21:03) What ...   Mar 26 2013, 06:29


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