IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

level matching when comparing lossy to lossless
krabapple
post Feb 7 2013, 19:42
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 2181
Joined: 18-December 03
Member No.: 10538



I probably should have had this settled in my mind long ago, but -- how necessary is it to level match when you are comparing a lossless track, to its mp3 counterpart?

By way of investigation, I compared foobar2k's reported replaygain and track peak values for the same track encoded (LAME 3.98) as V2 (195kbps VBR) and at 320 kbps CBR

lossless:
Track gain -1.08
Track Peak 0.938171

195kbps VBR:
+0.11
0.954459

320kbps CBR:
+.10
0.934477

The track peak differences are negligable, but whence comes the >1db difference in RPG gain of lossless vs. lossy? Does this mean that one should level match according to those RPG values when doing an ABX?

This post has been edited by krabapple: Feb 7 2013, 19:42
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Arnold B. Kruege...
post Feb 7 2013, 20:12
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 3647
Joined: 29-October 08
From: USA, 48236
Member No.: 61311



QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 7 2013, 13:42) *
I probably should have had this settled in my mind long ago, but -- how necessary is it to level match when you are comparing a lossless track, to its mp3 counterpart?

By way of investigation, I compared foobar2k's reported replaygain and track peak values for the same track encoded (LAME 3.98) as V2 (195kbps VBR) and at 320 kbps CBR

lossless:
Track gain -1.08
Track Peak 0.938171

195kbps VBR:
+0.11
0.954459

320kbps CBR:
+.10
0.934477

The track peak differences are negligable, but whence comes the >1db difference in RPG gain of lossless vs. lossy? Does this mean that one should level match according to those RPG values when doing an ABX?


Level matching within +/- 0.1 dB is the general rule. No level match and I will personally guarantee you will get proper identification if you are paying attention, even if you are comparing two copies of the same file but with the level shift.

I guess the question of interest is the choice of criteria for matching. Back in the days before phase disruptive things like perceptual coders even peak level was good enough. Today, if nothing else use average RMS or the closest thing to it that your software supports.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- krabapple   level matching when comparing lossy to lossless   Feb 7 2013, 19:42
- - lvqcl   The difference between lossless original and LAME...   Feb 7 2013, 20:01
- - Garf   If they're encoded from the same source I see ...   Feb 7 2013, 20:03
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Garf @ Feb 7 2013, 14:03) If they...   Feb 7 2013, 20:28
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 7 2013, 13:42) I p...   Feb 7 2013, 20:12
- - greynol   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 7 2013, 11...   Feb 7 2013, 20:32
|- - krabapple   QUOTE I find there is too great a tendency to trea...   Feb 7 2013, 20:46
|- - greynol   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 7 2013, 11:46) But...   Feb 7 2013, 20:59
- - krabapple   Here's what I get when I run the three tracks ...   Feb 7 2013, 20:37
|- - db1989   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 7 2013, 19:37) (So...   Feb 7 2013, 20:59
- - greynol   Thanks for the data. I believe those average RMS ...   Feb 7 2013, 20:41
- - lvqcl   Do you have foo_hdcd or use foo_dsp_effect for de-...   Feb 7 2013, 20:48
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Feb 7 2013, 14:48) Do you ...   Feb 7 2013, 20:51
- - lvqcl   foobar2000 always uses postprocessing plugins such...   Feb 7 2013, 20:56
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Feb 7 2013, 14:56) foobar2...   Feb 7 2013, 22:23
- - greynol   Without going into a prolonged discussion about it...   Feb 7 2013, 21:03
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 7 2013, 21:03) Witho...   Feb 7 2013, 22:57
|- - greynol   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Feb 7 2013, 13:57)...   Feb 7 2013, 23:11
|- - Kees de Visser   For critical work I still prefer to adjust for equ...   Feb 8 2013, 11:24
- - db1989   foobar2000 uses libebur128 since v1.1.7, so a diff...   Feb 7 2013, 21:15
- - 2Bdecided   If I understand it correctly, EBU R128 / ITU BS.17...   Feb 8 2013, 13:06
|- - DonP   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 8 2013, 07:06) Bef...   Feb 8 2013, 14:18
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (DonP @ Feb 8 2013, 13:18) QUOTE (2...   Feb 8 2013, 14:56
- - 2Bdecided   I do not use automatic (RG/R128) loudness matching...   Feb 8 2013, 13:15
- - greynol   I'm glad that is all spelled out, though you c...   Feb 8 2013, 16:58
- - 2Bdecided   It's made me realise that I ought to do a tabl...   Feb 8 2013, 17:56
- - lvqcl   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 7 2013, 23:28) QUO...   Feb 8 2013, 23:19


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24th July 2014 - 14:26