IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

ESS claim DAC pushes the boundaries of audio science, They claim results are supported by blind testing
wakibaki
post Jan 23 2013, 04:23
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 23-July 11
Member No.: 92474



Apologies if this topic has been posted previously, I did a search but found nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=1CkyrDIGzOE

The above link shows a youtube video of an ESS presentation at RMAF.

Granted it is a sales presentation, it details advances ESS claim in the design of their sigma-delta DACs.

Foremost in the claims is the fact that some people can evidently hear features well below the noise floor which were previously held by the majority of engineers to be inaudible. This is said to be confirmed in blind testing.

Large changes in the values of variables in the state space are said to contribute to non-periodic steady-state noise normally invisible using conventional measurement techniques. This is visible when instrumentation is used to examine the Noise-vs-DC Offset.

This is said to be minimized in ESS products by techniques designed to control the state-space related noise by rapidly quenching state variable excursions.

ESS also claim that a further artifact of sigma-delta modulators, variable (non-linear) excess phase, which causes oscillation in S-D modulators, has been eliminated by making their devices unconditionally stable, and that this too contributes to greater acceptance of the devices by some listeners, although the reasons for this are apparently not clearly understood.

w


--------------------
wakibaki.com
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jan 24 2013, 14:28
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 4320
Joined: 29-October 08
From: USA, 48236
Member No.: 61311



QUOTE (wakibaki @ Jan 22 2013, 22:23) *
Apologies if this topic has been posted previously, I did a search but found nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=1CkyrDIGzOE

The above link shows a youtube video of an ESS presentation at RMAF.


About 10 minutes into the presentation it misidentifies dither as noise shaping. How many more serious simple errors do I have to tally up before I justify not wasting any more time with it?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
2Bdecided
post Jan 24 2013, 18:50
Post #3


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 5285
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 24 2013, 13:28) *
About 10 minutes into the presentation it misidentifies dither as noise shaping.
No, he says the signal is dithering around, and puts the word dither in quotes. I think he knows full well it's not conventional dither he's talking about.


I can well believe the graphs he's showing. I would question audibility. I would question how the DAC responds to real-world signals. It's not just that it's hard to measure and show the (real) performance issues he's describing once you use real signals - it's that the noise in real signals randomises those problems so well that both measurement equipment and ears struggle to pick it up any more. There are/were SDM problems that did crop up in an apparently unpredictable ways with some real signals, but most companies believe those problems are solved.

It's a fascinating talk. There are some great, insightful examples in there (not least the very last one). However, he accepts the audibility of high (ultrasonic) frequencies as read, so...

I looked at the YouTube channel it's in - there are many other fascinating talks in the same channel (many from familiar names) which I wish I had time to listen to - but you will note very quickly that many of the people talking do not take the same approach to audio as HA - so while you may learn something, expect to find things that you totally disagree with...

http://www.youtube.com/user/RMAudiofest?feature=watch

Cheers,
David.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
dhromed
post Jan 25 2013, 11:50
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 1337
Joined: 16-February 08
From: NL
Member No.: 51347



QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 24 2013, 18:50) *
so while you may learn something, expect to find things that you totally disagree with...


I'm not sure I want to sift through the mud to get to the gold, especially when in my armchair position it's difficult to distinguish the two if they're both shiny.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
2Bdecided
post Jan 25 2013, 13:56
Post #5


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 5285
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



QUOTE (dhromed @ Jan 25 2013, 10:50) *
I'm not sure I want to sift through the mud to get to the gold
Are you going to miss out on the chance to listen to Matt Ashland (Monkey's Audio, J River) talking about the various windows audio output modes (which ones are always bit perfect, sometimes bit perfect, never bit perfect, etc), and then telling a room full of self-professed industry-leading audiophiles that they won't be able to hear the difference? wink.gif

QUOTE
especially when in my armchair position it's difficult to distinguish the two if they're both shiny.
I guess if you don't have a highly tuned BS meter it may be better to stay away.

Cheers,
David.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
2Bdecided
post Jan 25 2013, 17:59
Post #6


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 5285
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 12:56) *
I guess if you don't have a highly tuned BS meter it may be better to stay away.
...though if you want to explode with incredulity, try this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ3HRjFI6F0

"44.1kHz can't capture the phase of a 20kHz signal"
"We can detect an interaural delay of 2.5us which implies 350kHz"
"There's no point converting between DSD and 24/96 because it ruins the original so much, and neither is as good as analogue"

...and yet, some of those people make very nice sounding recordings. As one of the panel members says "I don't think the format matters - these people are particular about their choice of format in the same way that they're particular about everything else - and it's that care with other more important things that creates great results".

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Jan 25 2013, 18:00
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jan 25 2013, 19:28
Post #7





Group: Members
Posts: 4320
Joined: 29-October 08
From: USA, 48236
Member No.: 61311



QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 11:59) *
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 12:56) *
I guess if you don't have a highly tuned BS meter it may be better to stay away.
...though if you want to explode with incredulity, try this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ3HRjFI6F0

"44.1kHz can't capture the phase of a 20kHz signal"
"We can detect an interaural delay of 2.5us which implies 350kHz"
"There's no point converting between DSD and 24/96 because it ruins the original so much, and neither is as good as analogue"

...and yet, some of those people make very nice sounding recordings. As one of the panel members says "I don't think the format matters - these people are particular about their choice of format in the same way that they're particular about everything else - and it's that care with other more important things that creates great results".



Especially given the obvious superannuation of the panel members, in ArnyWorld the panel discussion would have 2 steps:

(1) Each panel member brings his favorite SACDs and DVD-As and has to pass a DBT of the Meyer-Moran persuasion

(2) The actual panel discussion involves only those who survive step (1).

Something about the sound of one hand clapping, or would that be no hands clapping? ;-)
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- wakibaki   ESS claim DAC pushes the boundaries of audio science   Jan 23 2013, 04:23
- - saratoga   DACs were a solved problem ten years ago so I...   Jan 23 2013, 05:28
- - phofman   The claim would have been much more credible if th...   Jan 23 2013, 08:13
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (phofman @ Jan 23 2013, 07:13) The ...   Jan 23 2013, 18:36
- - pdq   I haven't watched the video, but if the DBT th...   Jan 23 2013, 18:54
|- - Dynamic   pdq, it wasn't all about hearing below -96 dB ...   Jan 23 2013, 20:10
- - Dynamic   There's some plausible stuff in there, but the...   Jan 23 2013, 19:22
- - Willakan   During the presentation on jitter, the ESS guy als...   Jan 23 2013, 20:40
|- - Banned   QUOTE (Willakan @ Jan 23 2013, 21:40) Dur...   Jan 23 2013, 21:01
- - wakibaki   One of the 'golden ear' claims that has be...   Jan 23 2013, 21:04
|- - db1989   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Jan 23 2013, 20:04) Ult...   Jan 23 2013, 21:25
|- - Dynamic   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Jan 23 2013, 20:04) Ult...   Jan 23 2013, 21:49
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Jan 23 2013, 15:04) ESS...   Jan 24 2013, 14:12
- - Dynamic   I think inter-aural timing differences under 1ms c...   Jan 23 2013, 21:13
- - greynol   Until positive DBT results can be repeated by an i...   Jan 23 2013, 21:38
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 23 2013, 20:38) Unti...   Jan 23 2013, 23:14
|- - greynol   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Jan 23 2013, 14:14) If ...   Jan 23 2013, 23:25
||- - wakibaki   QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 23 2013, 22:25) Fall...   Jan 24 2013, 02:09
||- - pdq   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Jan 23 2013, 20:09) No,...   Jan 24 2013, 03:06
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (pdq @ Jan 24 2013, 03:06) Last I k...   Jan 24 2013, 18:00
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Jan 23 2013, 17:14) If ...   Jan 24 2013, 02:56
- - Willakan   Pretty impressive typo in my earlier post: I meant...   Jan 23 2013, 22:36
- - greynol   Funny how it is you who gets to rely on words like...   Jan 24 2013, 02:46
- - greynol   ...until it is disproved that the Flying Spaghetti...   Jan 24 2013, 03:06
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Jan 22 2013, 22:23) Apo...   Jan 24 2013, 14:28
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 24 2013, 13...   Jan 24 2013, 18:50
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 24 2013, 18:50) so...   Jan 25 2013, 11:50
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (dhromed @ Jan 25 2013, 10:50) I...   Jan 25 2013, 13:56
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 12:56) I ...   Jan 25 2013, 17:59
|||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 11:59) QU...   Jan 25 2013, 19:28
|||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 18...   Jan 25 2013, 19:49
||- - dhromed   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 13:56) QU...   Jan 26 2013, 00:19
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 24 2013, 12:50) QU...   Jan 25 2013, 13:15
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 12...   Jan 25 2013, 13:53
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 07:53) QU...   Jan 25 2013, 16:35
|- - benski   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 11...   Jan 25 2013, 17:24
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (benski @ Jan 25 2013, 16:24) What ...   Jan 25 2013, 17:55
||- - benski   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 12:55) an...   Jan 25 2013, 18:22
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (benski @ Jan 25 2013, 12:22) QUOTE...   Jan 25 2013, 18:27
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (benski @ Jan 25 2013, 17:22) QUOTE...   Jan 25 2013, 19:44
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (benski @ Jan 25 2013, 11:24) QUOTE...   Jan 25 2013, 18:21
- - Willakan   There's certainly no shortage of contentious c...   Jan 24 2013, 22:28
|- - Hotsoup   QUOTE (Willakan @ Jan 24 2013, 14:28) ......   Jan 24 2013, 22:46
- - 2Bdecided   This one is quite interesting... http://www.youtub...   Jan 25 2013, 11:12
- - Woodinville   Digital will not sound like analog until we start ...   Jan 25 2013, 11:13
- - db1989   If he hasnít had his lunch yet, his blood glucose ...   Jan 25 2013, 18:30
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (db1989 @ Jan 25 2013, 17:30) If he...   Jan 25 2013, 19:51


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th November 2014 - 18:26