IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

What we measure is what we hear
Yahzi
post Dec 24 2012, 17:34
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 209
Joined: 21-November 12
Member No.: 104669



I've heard audiophiles claim time and time again that what we measure does not reflect what we hear in a listening evaluation. I think Floyd Tool is the pioneer in conducting the studies for this, but who else as in a position of authority has led research into this field? It can't be mere opinion. I feel measurements largely do correlate with subjective sound quality but I don't think *all* measurements do. Some are more relevant than others.

What is your position?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
AndyH-ha
post Dec 31 2012, 07:38
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 2224
Joined: 31-August 05
Member No.: 24222



Subjective impressions are, after all, impressions relative to the subject, most generally the particular subject only, not relative to the data or the general population.

They might tell us something about the subject, but not much about the object. In some case, subjects even hear what they expect to hear when there is no signal (data/sound) at all. That alone implies the possibility that what they report hearing in the vague terms used in such reports do not relate to anything at all coming from the traducer (speaker/headphone/etc.)
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Woodinville
post Dec 31 2012, 09:43
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 1414
Joined: 9-January 05
From: In the kitchen
Member No.: 18957



QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Dec 30 2012, 22:38) *
Subjective impressions are, after all, impressions relative to the subject, most generally the particular subject only, not relative to the data or the general population.

They might tell us something about the subject, but not much about the object. In some case, subjects even hear what they expect to hear when there is no signal (data/sound) at all. That alone implies the possibility that what they report hearing in the vague terms used in such reports do not relate to anything at all coming from the traducer (speaker/headphone/etc.)


A properly designed and operated subjective test IS a form of measurement.

Audiophile tests generally (almost always) need not apply, of course.

But, a subjective test, run as a DBT, using a proper design, with anchors and controls, is a measurement. A measurement that is a true pain in the behind to do, perhaps, but it IS a measurement, and it most often even gives a useful noise level for the measurement.


--------------------
-----
J. D. (jj) Johnston
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Kees de Visser
post Dec 31 2012, 17:08
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 737
Joined: 22-May 05
From: France
Member No.: 22220



QUOTE (Woodinville @ Dec 31 2012, 09:43) *
A properly designed and operated subjective test IS a form of measurement.
I thought the food industry is doing this all the time:
http://www.ift.org/
QUOTE
Sensory evaluation has been defined as "a scientific discipline used to evoke, measure, analyze, and interpret reactions to those characteristics of foods and materials as they are perceived by the senses of sight, smell, taste, touch, and hearing" (IFT, 1975).

Perhaps we should be less scared to be subjective. All humans "suffer" from it. The real art is in finding out which variables are responsible.

Happy new (multisensory) year !
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
greynol
post Dec 31 2012, 17:43
Post #5





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 10339
Joined: 1-April 04
From: San Francisco
Member No.: 13167



I don't think this forum is scared of subjective opinions; we simply believe that expectation bias should not have a role at the table when it comes to gauging and expressing them.


--------------------
Your eyes cannot hear.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Woodinville
post Jan 1 2013, 03:06
Post #6





Group: Members
Posts: 1414
Joined: 9-January 05
From: In the kitchen
Member No.: 18957



QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 31 2012, 08:43) *
I don't think this forum is scared of subjective opinions; we simply believe that expectation bias should not have a role at the table when it comes to gauging and expressing them.



Amen to that. Sorry, but it had to be said twice.


--------------------
-----
J. D. (jj) Johnston
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- Yahzi   What we measure is what we hear   Dec 24 2012, 17:34
- - slks   It depends on which measurements we're talking...   Dec 24 2012, 17:56
- - Yahzi   So you are saying that measurements can explain wh...   Dec 24 2012, 18:22
|- - Ethan Winer   ^^^ Yes, you understand correctly. I've done a...   Dec 24 2012, 19:23
- - AndyH-ha   To sum of one aspect of "what we measure is N...   Dec 24 2012, 21:59
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Yahzi @ Dec 24 2012, 11:34) I...   Dec 24 2012, 23:40
- - Porcus   Two totally different points: (1) Those annoying ...   Dec 24 2012, 23:56
- - Woodinville   Many people have worked on measuring what you hear...   Dec 25 2012, 03:52
|- - jkauff   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Dec 24 2012, 21:52) ...   Dec 29 2012, 15:18
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (jkauff @ Dec 29 2012, 09:18) QUOTE...   Dec 31 2012, 18:14
- - dhromed   Your daughter is not an unmeasured outlier; she...   Dec 29 2012, 15:27
|- - garym   QUOTE (dhromed @ Dec 29 2012, 09:27) Your...   Dec 29 2012, 16:14
|- - sld   QUOTE (garym @ Dec 29 2012, 23:14) QUOTE ...   Dec 29 2012, 19:27
- - greynol   I doubt she is as well. What frequency is the cat ...   Dec 29 2012, 15:30
|- - jkauff   QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 29 2012, 09:30) I do...   Dec 30 2012, 23:05
|- - Soap   QUOTE (jkauff @ Dec 30 2012, 17:05) Cat h...   Dec 30 2012, 23:49
- - greynol   We hear about people in their early 20s and younge...   Dec 29 2012, 19:21
- - Mach-X   Ouch.   Dec 29 2012, 20:55
- - Yahzi   Correct me if I'm wrong but we hear using our ...   Dec 30 2012, 14:07
|- - Soap   QUOTE (Yahzi @ Dec 30 2012, 08:07) Correc...   Dec 30 2012, 15:05
- - Yahzi   I just thought I'd ask the question and I thou...   Dec 30 2012, 16:39
- - Speedskater   If you restrict the use of the words "hear...   Dec 30 2012, 17:52
- - pisymbol   QUOTE (Yahzi @ Dec 24 2012, 11:34) I...   Dec 31 2012, 02:05
|- - AndyH-ha   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Dec 30 2012, 18:05) But...   Dec 31 2012, 02:52
|- - pisymbol   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Dec 30 2012, 20:52...   Dec 31 2012, 03:12
|- - db1989   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Dec 31 2012, 02:12) Sub...   Dec 31 2012, 05:25
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Dec 30 2012, 21:12) Sub...   Dec 31 2012, 18:14
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Dec 31 2012, 18:14) ...   Dec 31 2012, 18:41
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 31 2012, 09:41) This...   Jan 1 2013, 03:10
||- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 31 2012, 12:41) but ...   Jan 1 2013, 19:09
|||- - Martel   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Jan 1 2013, 20:09) ....   Jan 1 2013, 19:54
|||- - Nessuno   Let alone those quite obvious issues which actuall...   Jan 1 2013, 23:08
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 31 2012, 12:41) ...i...   Jan 2 2013, 17:43
||- - pdq   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 31 2012, 12:41) if p...   Jan 2 2013, 17:50
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (pdq @ Jan 2 2013, 17:50) QUOTE (Ne...   Jan 2 2013, 19:16
|||- - pdq   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 2 2013, 13:16) QUOTE...   Jan 2 2013, 20:28
|||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (pdq @ Jan 2 2013, 20:28) However, ...   Jan 2 2013, 21:12
|||- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 2 2013, 21:12) QUOTE...   Jan 3 2013, 01:13
||||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Jan 3 2013, 01:13) QUOT...   Jan 3 2013, 02:11
||||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 2 2013, 17:11) QUOTE...   Jan 3 2013, 11:15
|||- - pdq   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 2 2013, 15:12) QUOTE...   Jan 3 2013, 02:07
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Jan 2 2013, 11:50) QUOTE (Ne...   Jan 3 2013, 01:20
|||- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 3 2013, 01...   Jan 3 2013, 01:23
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (pdq @ Jan 2 2013, 11:50) QUOTE (Ne...   Jan 3 2013, 18:12
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Dec 30 2012, 21:12) Sub...   Dec 31 2012, 18:25
- - AndyH-ha   Subjective impressions are, after all, impressions...   Dec 31 2012, 07:38
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Dec 30 2012, 22:38...   Dec 31 2012, 09:43
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Dec 31 2012, 09:43) ...   Dec 31 2012, 17:08
|- - greynol   I don't think this forum is scared of subjecti...   Dec 31 2012, 17:43
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 31 2012, 08:43) I do...   Jan 1 2013, 03:06
- - greynol   TL;DR: MUSHRA and other ABC-style tests are subjec...   Dec 31 2012, 11:59
|- - Satellite_6   So far the best measuring headphones I have tried ...   Dec 31 2012, 15:32
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Satellite_6 @ Dec 31 2012, 15:32) ...   Dec 31 2012, 16:18
- - Martel   What's the "best measuring" frequenc...   Dec 31 2012, 16:15
|- - Soap   QUOTE (Martel @ Dec 31 2012, 10:15) What...   Dec 31 2012, 16:42
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Martel @ Dec 31 2012, 07:15) What...   Jan 1 2013, 03:08
- - greynol   Maybe we should take a close look at the meaning o...   Dec 31 2012, 20:29
- - jkauff   Next, on to wine tasting....   Dec 31 2012, 21:28
- - greynol   Feel free to start a new topic, replacing the word...   Dec 31 2012, 22:13
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 31 2012, 13:13) Feel...   Jan 1 2013, 03:12
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Dec 31 2012, 21:12) ...   Jan 1 2013, 15:47
- - greynol   You're right, I just don't know that we sh...   Jan 1 2013, 03:25
|- - Nessuno   Maybe a little OT, but I recall a "rule of th...   Jan 1 2013, 12:47
- - Yahzi   It seems this discussion ain't over yet. Thank...   Jan 1 2013, 20:49
- - greynol   The point I was making is that the ears (outer or ...   Jan 2 2013, 00:23
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 1 2013, 15:23) The p...   Jan 2 2013, 00:41
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jan 2 2013, 00:41) I...   Jan 2 2013, 01:12
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 1 2013, 16:12) QUOTE...   Jan 2 2013, 01:40
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 2 2013, 00:23) The p...   Jan 2 2013, 01:01
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 1 2013, 16:01) QUOTE...   Jan 2 2013, 01:44
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jan 2 2013, 01:44) Y...   Jan 2 2013, 12:10
- - Martel   It's nearly impossible to measure subjective f...   Jan 2 2013, 13:19
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Martel @ Jan 2 2013, 07:19) It...   Jan 2 2013, 17:47
- - heatfire   Can only measure that we hear it not how or what w...   Jan 2 2013, 15:53
- - heatfire   There is one measurement some "audiophiles...   Jan 2 2013, 19:49
- - knutinh   Good work carried out by Toole and others aside: A...   Jan 3 2013, 13:02
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (knutinh @ Jan 3 2013, 07:02) Good ...   Jan 3 2013, 13:34


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 26th December 2014 - 14:03