IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

At long last, copy your digital collection to vinyl!
Apesbrain
post Dec 21 2012, 21:16
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 474
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 10915



http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/21/3d-printed-record/

Enjoy the video!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
splice
post Dec 22 2012, 03:42
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 119
Joined: 23-July 03
Member No.: 7935



The "stairstepping" of the printed groove walls is what causes the "fire siren" background sound. It's noticeable, but not as bad as you imply. The actual music distortion is due to two causes: Lack of RIAA pre-equalisation, and lack of printer resolution (the "wiggles" in the groove walls for the higher frequencies are smaller than the printer resolution.)

The point is not that the quality is poor at the moment. Printers (and thus the quality) will improve, and their costs will drop.


--------------------
Regards,
Don Hills
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
mzil
post Dec 22 2012, 04:32
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 499
Joined: 5-August 07
Member No.: 45913



QUOTE (splice @ Dec 21 2012, 22:42) *
The "stairstepping" of the printed groove walls is what causes the "fire siren" background sound. It's noticeable, but not as bad as you imply.

Considering normal records have absolutley none, I would consider it completly unlistenable, but if you deem it "not so bad", so be it.

To the needle, as it plays these impossible to properly track squares, the signal seems to be a signal which alternates between square waves to triangular waves, twice per 1.8 second rotation: square, triangle, square, triangle and then back to square. But since it largely just smashes through ignoring them, all we hear is the fire siren whine rendition. [and yes, some music too]

QUOTE
Lack of RIAA pre-equalisation
If that's true, then we also aren't hearing this LP played back with RIAA de-empasis either, via a phono preamp, because the music we hear does have a fairly normal bass content and is not thin and squeaky. [The "LP" play time per side would be much smaller too.]

I'm not claiming this method might not eventually be just as good if not better than conventional cutterheads and lathes as 3D printers improve (if there was any reason to continue making LPs), I'm just commenting on how terrible this version sounds, at least to my ears.

This post has been edited by mzil: Dec 22 2012, 04:50
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Soap
post Dec 22 2012, 04:50
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 1005
Joined: 19-November 06
Member No.: 37767



QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 22:32) *
Considering normal records have absolutley none, I would consider it completly unlistenable, but if you deem it "not so bad", so be it.


Sure they do. Just at a much smaller scale. My point was that the needle doesn't care once you get past a certain point. I'm not sure 600dpi is that point, but it isn't far off.

QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 22:32) *
To the needle, as it plays these impossible to properly track squares, the signal seems to be a signal which alternates between square waves to triangular waves, twice per 1.8 second rotation: square, triangle, square, triangle and then back to square. But since it largely just smashes through ignoring them, all we hear is the fire siren whine rendition.


But it isn't a series of squares and triangles to the needle. The needle is too large to "feel" the inner corner (triangle) and won't ride the flats (square) as the leading edge of the elliptical stylus is limited in its range of motion by the trailing edge is limited by the "side (and vise versa).


--------------------
Creature of habit.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
mzil
post Dec 22 2012, 05:16
Post #5





Group: Members
Posts: 499
Joined: 5-August 07
Member No.: 45913



QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 21 2012, 23:50) *
QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 22:32) *
Considering normal records have absolutley none, I would consider it completly unlistenable, but if you deem it "not so bad", so be it.


Sure they do. Just at a much smaller scale.

No, conventional analog records have no staircase structure to their groove walls, at all, hence no staircase structure noise. They do have lots of other noises, however, including groove wall noise which, at times, is modulated per rotation.

This post has been edited by mzil: Dec 22 2012, 05:30
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Soap
post Dec 22 2012, 11:47
Post #6





Group: Members
Posts: 1005
Joined: 19-November 06
Member No.: 37767



QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 23:16) *
QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 21 2012, 23:50) *
QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 22:32) *
Considering normal records have absolutley none, I would consider it completly unlistenable, but if you deem it "not so bad", so be it.


Sure they do. Just at a much smaller scale.

No, conventional analog records have no staircase structure to their groove walls, at all, hence no staircase structure noise. They do have lots of other noises, however, including groove wall noise which, at times, is modulated per rotation.

You're not looking at a small enough scale.

QUOTE (Glenn Gundlach @ Dec 22 2012, 04:46) *
QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 12:53) *
I wouldn't advise this! The stylus isn't playing a smooth waveform, it is attempting to play a staircase textured groove wall. The constant bashing of the needle between steps is analogous (pardon the pun) to applying an improperly light, downward tracking force with a normal record, also very bad. Besides the distortion, it wears down the needle very quickly with all the side to side groove bashing going on!


Have you ever looked at the analog output waveforms of a properly operating digital system? There are no little steps as they get completely cleaned up in the reconstruction filters.

Glenn, mzil is talking about the physically dot-printed walls, nothing to do with what you're talking about.


--------------------
Creature of habit.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
mzil
post Dec 24 2012, 06:36
Post #7





Group: Members
Posts: 499
Joined: 5-August 07
Member No.: 45913



QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 22 2012, 06:47) *
QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 23:16) *
QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 21 2012, 23:50) *
QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 22:32) *
Considering normal records have absolutley none, I would consider it completly unlistenable, but if you deem it "not so bad", so be it.


Sure they do. Just at a much smaller scale.

No, conventional analog records have no staircase structure to their groove walls, at all, hence no staircase structure noise. They do have lots of other noises, however, including groove wall noise which, at times, is modulated per rotation.

You're not looking at a small enough scale.

OK then, please explain exactly what causes this staircase structure on a conventional analog record groove wall, you speak of.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Soap
post Dec 24 2012, 21:10
Post #8





Group: Members
Posts: 1005
Joined: 19-November 06
Member No.: 37767



QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 24 2012, 00:36) *
QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 22 2012, 06:47) *

You're not looking at a small enough scale.

OK then, please explain exactly what causes this staircase structure on a conventional analog record groove wall, you speak of.


At a small enough scale the walls of a record groove are quite rough. Vinyl molecules are not infinitely small.

My point, though, is that this doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because the stylus is large enough that it can not resolve the "texture" of the individual vinyl molecules.

At some point (and I'd welcome the math showing exactly when) the limited resolution of the 3D printer doesn't matter either, for the same reason. Based on the numbers I cited above I strongly suspect that the scale of the printer is already fine enough that the stylus can't resolve the "square" and "triangle" shapes you mentioned, but what exactly the cut off is I don't know.



--------------------
Creature of habit.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
mzil
post Dec 25 2012, 00:58
Post #9





Group: Members
Posts: 499
Joined: 5-August 07
Member No.: 45913



QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 24 2012, 16:10) *
QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 24 2012, 00:36) *
QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 22 2012, 06:47) *

You're not looking at a small enough scale.

OK then, please explain exactly what causes this staircase structure on a conventional analog record groove wall, you speak of.


At a small enough scale the walls of a record groove are quite rough. Vinyl molecules are not infinitely small.


There's no vinyl record stylus/laser/optical scanner mechanism known to resolve that level of detail you speak of, not by a long shot; it would be like attempting to examine small specs of dust that appear on the surface of rocks found on the slopes of Mt. Everest from a digital camera photograph of the entire mountain, with the mountain itself representing a typical imperfection found on conventional record groove walls. The molecular bumps, which are the specs of dust on Everest, can't be heard nor can they be recorded with any known technology that scans the music on LPs in one pass, just like you can't blow up an image of Mt. Everest to look for dust particles on the rocks.

Even speaking theoretically, these molecular-level, tiny bumps and pits (which have nothing to do with the overwhelming and relatively mountainous bumps and valleys which make up the real groove wall noise that we actually can hear on a conventional record) are scattered about randomly throughout the entire rotation of the record groove, not in a methodical, grid-like staircase structure like on her printed records have, hence they would appear as ultra high frequency, random noise (think "hiss"), not a fire truck siren tone which rises and falls per 1.8 second rotation (like we clearly hear on her printed records).

No staircase structure = no staircase structure noise. Ergo, conventional records have no 1.8 second modulated fire engine siren noise, at any frequency, at any level, not even theoretically at a molecular level.



QUOTE
Based on the numbers I cited above I strongly suspect that the scale of the printer is already fine enough that the stylus can't resolve the "square" and "triangle" shapes you mentioned, but what exactly the cut off is I don't know.


Although as it was pointed out earlier (by another forum member) they are more like irregular blobs, not precise little cubes, the stylus of her rather junky turntable most definitely can make out the grid structure of her printed records. I guess the dot structure is more sharply defined across one of the two horizontal axes than the other, hence she refers to the pattern as being one of closely packed horizontal lines:

"yes the repetitive high pitch frequency sweep is actually a byproduct of the printing process. The objet has an array of heads that it uses to print and it moves this array back and forth as it lays down material. At the end of the print the surface is covered with tiny 600dpi parallel lines caused by the space in between the individual heads. Each time the record needle passes perpendicularly over these lines it adds another frequency into the audio output. if you listen closely, you will hear the frequency of this sweep decrease as the needle moves to the inner grooves (because it does not move as fast across the surface of the record)"

Source: http://www.instructables.com/id/3D-Printed...fset=40#DISCUSS
amandaghassaei (author) says: Dec 20, 2012. 10:27 AM in the discussion section

This post has been edited by mzil: Dec 25 2012, 01:16
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Soap
post Dec 25 2012, 01:14
Post #10





Group: Members
Posts: 1005
Joined: 19-November 06
Member No.: 37767



QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 24 2012, 18:58) *
There's no vinyl record stylus/laser/optical scanner mechanism known to resolve that level of detail you speak of, not by a long shot; it would be like attempting to examine small specs of dust that appear on the surface of rocks found on the slopes of Mt. Everest from a digital camera photograph of the entire mountain, with the mountain itself representing a typical imperfection found on conventional record groove walls. The molecular bumps, which are the specs of dust on Everest, can't be heard nor can they be recorded with any known technology that scans the music on LPs in one pass, just like you can't blow up an image of Mt. Everest to look for dust particles on the rocks.

Even speaking theoretically, these molecular-level, tiny bumps and pits (which have nothing to do with the overwhelming and relatively mountainous bumps and valleys which make up the real groove wall noise that we actually can hear on a conventional record) are scattered about randomly throughout the entire rotation of the record groove, not in a methodical rising and falling staircase structure like on her printed records have, hence they would appear as ultra high frequency, random noise (think "hiss"), not a fire truck siren tone which rises and falls per 1.8 second rotation (like we clearly hear on her printed records).

No staircase structure = no staircase structure noise. Ergo, conventional records have no 1.8 second modulated fire engine siren noise, at any frequency, at any level, not even theoretically at a molecular level.


You completely appear to have missed the line:

"My point, though, is that this doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because the stylus is large enough that it can not resolve the "texture" of the individual vinyl molecules."

But thanks for telling me what I already said. wink.gif



--------------------
Creature of habit.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BFG
post Feb 9 2013, 19:09
Post #11





Group: Members
Posts: 206
Joined: 22-July 12
Member No.: 101637



When I first read this topic's title, I thought someone was trolling the board.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- Apesbrain   At long last, copy your digital collection to vinyl!   Dec 21 2012, 21:16
- - Sunhillow   This brings the analog warmth back to digital sour...   Dec 21 2012, 21:25
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Sunhillow @ Dec 21 2012, 15:25) Th...   Dec 24 2012, 14:47
- - mzil   I wouldn't advise this! The stylus isn...   Dec 21 2012, 21:53
|- - Soap   QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 15:53) I would...   Dec 21 2012, 22:31
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 12:53) I would...   Dec 22 2012, 10:46
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 15:53) I would...   Feb 9 2013, 19:59
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 9 2013, 14:59) I...   Feb 9 2013, 21:31
- - mzil   What matters is not the dimensions of the needle, ...   Dec 21 2012, 23:26
- - splice   The "stairstepping" of the printed groov...   Dec 22 2012, 03:42
|- - mzil   QUOTE (splice @ Dec 21 2012, 22:42) The ...   Dec 22 2012, 04:32
|- - Soap   QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 22:32) Conside...   Dec 22 2012, 04:50
||- - mzil   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 21 2012, 23:50) QUOTE (...   Dec 22 2012, 05:16
|||- - Nessuno   The printing process is actually a downsampling an...   Dec 22 2012, 10:06
|||- - Soap   QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 23:16) QUOTE (...   Dec 22 2012, 11:47
|||- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 22 2012, 02:47) Glenn, ...   Dec 22 2012, 19:41
|||- - mzil   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 22 2012, 06:47) QUOTE (...   Dec 24 2012, 06:36
|||- - Soap   QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 24 2012, 00:36) QUOTE (...   Dec 24 2012, 21:10
|||- - mzil   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 24 2012, 16:10) QUOTE (...   Dec 25 2012, 00:58
|||- - Soap   QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 24 2012, 18:58) There...   Dec 25 2012, 01:14
|||- - BFG   When I first read this topic's title, I though...   Feb 9 2013, 19:09
||- - mzil   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 21 2012, 23:50) QUOTE (...   Dec 25 2012, 01:33
||- - Soap   Again, the point is that your line: QUOTE (mzil ...   Dec 25 2012, 02:10
||- - Soap   QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 22:32) Conside...   Dec 25 2012, 03:47
||- - splice   QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 24 2012, 17:33) ... My ...   Dec 25 2012, 11:59
|- - splice   QUOTE (mzil @ Dec 21 2012, 19:32) QUOTE (...   Dec 23 2012, 01:33
|- - pdq   QUOTE (splice @ Dec 22 2012, 19:33) Do yo...   Dec 24 2012, 14:42
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Dec 24 2012, 05:42) QUOTE (s...   Dec 24 2012, 21:25
|- - washu   QUOTE (splice @ Dec 24 2012, 15:25) CGA d...   Dec 24 2012, 21:40
- - bryant   This is very cool! I recently had sort of the ...   Dec 23 2012, 00:05
- - lvqcl   AFAIR CGA graphics = 320x200 4 colors or 640x200 2...   Dec 24 2012, 21:33
- - splice   You're right. Memory is the second thing to go...   Dec 25 2012, 00:11
- - mccarthyk   That is amazing. I'm sure it's not too di...   Feb 9 2013, 17:58
- - splice   QUOTE (mccarthyk @ Feb 9 2013, 09:58) Tha...   Feb 10 2013, 03:02


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th July 2014 - 12:30