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Modern Vinyl "Masters" vs. CD--My Experience, It Really IS About the Music
GeSomeone
post Jan 5 2013, 18:46
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 5 2013, 17:02) *
[..] nobody thinks that applying a special EQ-curve like RIAA to the master going on a record is going to cost big bucks and thus prevent the recording industry from doing it.

With making a vinyl master the step of cutting the master is one where the volume again might be changed (in contrary to the glass master made for optical (digital) discs, where the content stays unchanged). The reason is that the loudness of the signal directly relates to the space the groove takes up on the record. Also there are limits to groove swing (especially at high frequencies). I guess the RIAA curve will be applied by some (maybe analog) filter in the cutting setup and not as a separate process.

This document of a vinyl cutting service gives some insight in the process.


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Engelsstaub
post Jan 6 2013, 17:47
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Yes, I don't doubt that that is quite possibly the norm (RIAA EQ applied during the cutting-process.) Thanks for the link.

I'm not a music-industry professional so I don't claim to know for certain exactly what is being done to the CD-versions of almost all of the recent albums I've purchased. I can only guess that they are pushing the masters to clipping and/or introducing more DRC while applying them to CD pressings and iTunes releases. This is just based on what I hear and can (accurately?) measure with tools such as the TT Dynamic Range Offline Meter.

I'm going to hopefully revisit this thread in a few months when I acquire some new equipment (TT, soundcard, preamp...) I don't want to digitize any more vinyl before that. Seems pointless when I can listen to it anyway and will get slightly more satisfactory results with the newer gear.

In the meantime...f anyone has any suggestions of modern vinyl that you'd like to see compared to the CD, feel free to suggest or send me a PM. I don't guarantee I'll purchase or do it, but if it's something interesting to myself and my collection I'll consider it. It doesn't have to be rock or metal either. I'll consider nearly any genre if the album is (IMO) good or interesting.


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2Bdecided
post Jan 7 2013, 15:46
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I don't have anything recent on both vinyl and CD to compare.

I can't remember how the DR meter works. It would be worth taking a smashed CD master, attenuating it by 6dB, and running that through the DR meter as-is, and then applying a suitable all-pass filter and running that filtered copy through the DR meter - see if it gets fooled.

Cheers,
David.
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Engelsstaub
post Jan 7 2013, 18:21
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Sounds like a good idea, David. I can easily figure out how to do this up to the part about applying an all-pass filter.

Does anyone know of a suitable all-pass filter plugin for Audacity or iZotope RX2 Advanced? (That's pretty much all I use on OS X.) I've been Googling my arse off and not finding anything...I'm a complete newb with respect to implementing such a filter.


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Kees de Visser
post Jan 7 2013, 21:00
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 7 2013, 18:21) *
Does anyone know of a suitable all-pass filter plugin for Audacity or iZotope RX2 Advanced?
There's the free PhaseNudge AU (audio unit): (assuming your Audacity can handle AU plugins, if not, Reaper could be an option):
http://www.airwindows.com/index.html
QUOTE
PhaseNudge is a free allpass for phase rotation, such as matching dissimilar mics or adjusting the upfrontness of a track. Higher values rotate the attack farther back behind the body of the sound.

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Engelsstaub
post Jan 7 2013, 21:55
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Thanks, Kees de Visser.

Apparently iZotope RX2 does support the use of this plugin. Do I need to just batch-process an entire album with it set as in this illustration?



The only control is that slider...and I clearly don't know what I'm doing anymore at this point biggrin.gif


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DVDdoug
post Jan 7 2013, 23:02
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QUOTE
Does anyone know of a suitable all-pass filter plugin for Audacity or iZotope RX2
I don't have an all-pass filter handy, so I tried something different... I applied some EQ (boosting the highs & cutting the lows), and then I applied the opposite EQ settings. (I didn't try to duplicate the RIAA curves, I just tried to duplicate the basic concept without the mechanical effects.) I did seem to get some "magical" dynamic range improvement.

I just did some quick-and-dirty experiments with GoldWave and with Audacity, and I didn't even listen to the results, since I'm at work... (You can "fool" GoldWave into reporting the peak & average values.) GoldWave increased the difference between peak & average by about 6dB. With Audacity, the difference increased by 2 or 3 dB. (I didn't use the exact same settings, since the equalizers are different.)

If the equalizer doesn't introduce any phase shift, or if the opposite settings introduce the exact-opposite phase shift, I wouldn't expect this to "work"... So, a "better" equalzer might have less effect or no effect at all.
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Engelsstaub
post Jan 9 2013, 00:02
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Here is the DR value analysis of the CD (FLAC rip) Woods of Ypres' "Woods IV: The Green Album" prior to any further processing. (I chose this particular one because it is, to me, one of the most offensively smashed of my original examples in comparison to the vinyl.)

CODE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: /Users/Jay/Music/Vinyl Rips/Vinyl Rips/Woods of Ypres/CD
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR5 -0.30 dB -8.91 dB 01 - Shards Of Love (Hurt Forever).wav
DR4 -0.30 dB -5.25 dB 02 - Everything I Touch Turns To Gold (Then To Coal).wav
DR5 -0.30 dB -6.72 dB 03 - By The Time You Read This (I Will Already Be Dead).wav
DR5 -0.30 dB -7.61 dB 04 - I Was Buried In Mount Pleasant Cemetery.wav
DR4 -0.30 dB -6.50 dB (null)
DR5 -0.30 dB -6.73 dB 06 - Pining (For You).wav
DR5 -0.30 dB -5.93 dB 07 - Wet Leather.wav
DR4 -0.35 dB -6.09 dB 08 - Suicide Cargoload (Drag That Weight).wav
DR4 -0.30 dB -5.98 dB 09 - Halves And Quarters.wav
DR7 -0.35 dB -8.38 dB 10 - You Are Here With Me (In This Sequence Of Dreams).wav
DR5 -0.35 dB -7.17 dB 11 - Retrosleep In The Morning Calm.wav
DR4 -0.30 dB -5.94 dB (null)
DR4 -0.30 dB -5.70 dB 13 - Natural Technologies.wav
DR4 -0.30 dB -5.99 dB 14 - Mirror Reflection & The Hammer Reinvention.wav
DR5 -0.35 dB -6.42 dB 15 - Our Union (In Limbo).wav
DR6 -0.35 dB -7.72 dB 16 - Move On! (The Woman Will Always Leave The Man).wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 16
Official DR value: DR5

==============================================================================================



As per David's suggestion I processed the CD for Woods IV: The Green Album in iZotope RX2 Advanced by dropping the gain of all tracks by about -6 dB. Here are the results following that...

CODE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: /Users/Jay/Music/Vinyl Rips/Vinyl Rips/Woods of Ypres/CD/-6db
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR5 -6.34 dB -14.95 dB 01 - Shards Of Love (Hurt Forever).wav
DR4 -6.34 dB -11.29 dB 02 - Everything I Touch Turns To Gold (Then To Coal).wav
DR5 -6.34 dB -12.76 dB 03 - By The Time You Read This (I Will Already Be Dead).wav
DR5 -6.34 dB -13.65 dB 04 - I Was Buried In Mount Pleasant Cemetery.wav
DR4 -6.34 dB -12.54 dB (null)
DR5 -6.34 dB -12.77 dB 06 - Pining (For You).wav
DR5 -6.34 dB -11.97 dB 07 - Wet Leather.wav
DR4 -6.39 dB -12.13 dB 08 - Suicide Cargoload (Drag That Weight).wav
DR4 -6.34 dB -12.02 dB 09 - Halves And Quarters.wav
DR7 -6.39 dB -14.42 dB 10 - You Are Here With Me (In This Sequence Of Dreams).wav
DR5 -6.39 dB -13.21 dB 11 - Retrosleep In The Morning Calm.wav
DR4 -6.34 dB -11.98 dB (null)
DR4 -6.34 dB -11.75 dB 13 - Natural Technologies.wav
DR4 -6.34 dB -12.03 dB 14 - Mirror Reflection & The Hammer Reinvention.wav
DR5 -6.39 dB -12.46 dB 15 - Our Union (In Limbo).wav
DR6 -6.39 dB -13.76 dB 16 - Move On! (The Woman Will Always Leave The Man).wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 16
Official DR value: DR5

==============================================================================================



I used the AU PhaseNudge plugin (Kees de Visser's suggestion,) via iZotope RX2 with the settings shown in my previous illustration, to then further process those files. It did indeed seem to influence the DR analysis.

CODE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: /Users/Jay/Music/Vinyl Rips/Vinyl Rips/Woods of Ypres/CD AU phase nudge
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR9 -2.65 dB -15.22 dB 01 - Shards Of Love (Hurt Forever).wav
DR9 -1.95 dB -11.64 dB 02 - Everything I Touch Turns To Gold (Then To Coal).wav
DR9 -2.36 dB -13.06 dB 03 - By The Time You Read This (I Will Already Be Dead).wav
DR9 -2.13 dB -13.95 dB 04 - I Was Buried In Mount Pleasant Cemetery.wav
DR9 -1.98 dB -12.87 dB (null)
DR9 -2.50 dB -13.07 dB 06 - Pining (For You).wav
DR9 -2.11 dB -12.30 dB 07 - Wet Leather.wav
DR9 -2.09 dB -12.47 dB 08 - Suicide Cargoload (Drag That Weight).wav
DR9 -2.26 dB -12.36 dB 09 - Halves And Quarters.wav
DR9 -3.71 dB -14.67 dB 10 - You Are Here With Me (In This Sequence Of Dreams).wav
DR10 -2.03 dB -13.51 dB 11 - Retrosleep In The Morning Calm.wav
DR9 -2.13 dB -12.31 dB (null)
DR9 -1.71 dB -12.09 dB 13 - Natural Technologies.wav
DR9 -1.91 dB -12.37 dB 14 - Mirror Reflection & The Hammer Reinvention.wav
DR9 -2.00 dB -12.77 dB 15 - Our Union (In Limbo).wav
DR9 -2.49 dB -14.05 dB 16 - Move On! (The Woman Will Always Leave The Man).wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 16
Official DR value: DR9

==============================================================================================



Here is the original DR analysis of my vinyl transfer (after a few clicks were removed.)

CODE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: /Users/Jay/Music/Vinyl Rips/Vinyl Rips/Woods of Ypres/Woods IV- The Green Album
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -3.86 dB -20.48 dB 01 - Shards of Love (Hurt Forever).wav
DR12 -2.71 dB -16.50 dB 02 - Everything I Touch Turns To Gold (Then To Coal).wav
DR13 -2.53 dB -18.18 dB 03 - By The Time You Read This (I Will Already Be Dead).wav
DR13 -3.81 dB -19.43 dB 04 - I Was Buried In Mount Pleasant Cemetery.wav
DR12 -2.92 dB -16.83 dB 05 - Into Exile- Can You Get Here in 10 Days.wav
DR12 -3.07 dB -17.17 dB 06 - Pining (For You).wav
DR12 -2.50 dB -16.17 dB 07 - Wet Leather.wav
DR11 -2.76 dB -16.30 dB 08 - Suicide Cargoload (Drag that Weight!).wav
DR11 -2.64 dB -15.34 dB 09 - Halves and Quarters.wav
DR11 -6.06 dB -18.43 dB 10 - You Are Here with Me (In This Sequence of Dreams).wav
DR12 -3.59 dB -16.75 dB 11 - Retrosleep in the Morning Calm.wav
DR11 -0.84 dB -13.92 dB 12 - Don't Open The Wounds (Skywide Armspread).wav
DR12 -1.44 dB -15.77 dB 13 - Natural Technologies.wav
DR12 -1.43 dB -15.84 dB 14 - Mirror Reflection (And The Hammer Re-Invention).wav
DR12 -2.86 dB -17.06 dB 15 - Our Union (in Limbo).wav
DR12 -3.66 dB -18.30 dB 16 - Move On! (The Woman Will Always Leave The Man).wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 16
Official DR value: DR12

==============================================================================================



Sooo...I'm honestly not sure what I"m to conclude from this so please bear with me. Am I to conclude that the DR analysis tool is not to be trusted because screwing with the phase of a recording will make it look like it has more DR (or more like the vinyl "master" as in this instance?) (Does this, by extension, imply that the sound on a record could be so screwed that it would also give the false indication of more dynamic range?)



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greynol
post Jan 9 2013, 01:41
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 8 2013, 15:02) *
Does this, by extension, imply that the sound on a record could be so screwed that it would also give the false indication of more dynamic range?

This.


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Engelsstaub
post Jan 9 2013, 03:23
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I'm struggling to believe that the LP, even taking into account its inherent limitations, is that unfaithful to the master.



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greynol
post Jan 9 2013, 04:16
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Beats not knowing that such an effect exists. wink.gif


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2Bdecided
post Jan 9 2013, 11:07
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Thank you for posting those results Engelsstaub.

QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 9 2013, 02:23) *
I'm struggling to believe that the LP, even taking into account its inherent limitations, is that unfaithful to the master.
By definition it can't store DC (or very low frequency) components, and in practice it's rare for the system (cutting or replay) to be linear phase.

Within sensible limits, neither of these issues create an audible problem, but they can make the waveform look completely different.


You could make a DR measurement algorithm that wasn't tricked by such things.


IMO some of your LPs do demonstrate less compressed/clipped masters than the CD release of the same material, but others do not.

Cheers,
David.
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Engelsstaub
post Jan 9 2013, 16:33
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Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification.

I know some of these examples are essentially no better than the CD. I just uploaded most of the needledrops I have done thus far and wasn't trying to cherry-pick the obviously better ones that would promote my agenda. smile.gif

...I don't have an agenda. I do like to collect records but I have to admit they can be a pain in the ass. It's time-consuming to digitize them. I sometimes get bad/defective pressings right out of the package.... When they're good they're really good. But I've gotten maybe one or two defective CDs, in comparison, in my entire life. I wish I could buy CDs knowing that I"m getting the best possible reproduction of recordings I like. Honestly. I remember when I got my first CD player I thought "this is it for now. I couldn't possibly want to step back to other formats."

...makes me want to get into a time-machine and go back to about '88 when I could count on either format being mastered in a way that wasn't fatiguing to my ears.


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Kohlrabi
post Jan 9 2013, 16:58
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 9 2013, 16:33) *
...makes me want to get into a time-machine and go back to about '88 when I could count on either format being mastered in a way that wasn't fatiguing to my ears.
If you had a time-machine, it would be much more beneficial to go back in time and destroy Masterdisk and have Rick Rubin see an ear specialist.

This post has been edited by Kohlrabi: Jan 9 2013, 17:03


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Engelsstaub
post Jan 10 2013, 00:12
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QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Jan 9 2013, 09:58) *
If you had a time-machine, it would be much more beneficial to go back in time and destroy Masterdisk and have Rick Rubin see an ear specialist.


laugh.gif

"Rickrubined" should become a new universal term describing the worst possible/brickwalled production.


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greynol
post Jan 10 2013, 00:16
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Remove the b.

This post has been edited by greynol: Jan 10 2013, 00:17


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Engelsstaub
post Jan 10 2013, 00:31
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Even better smile.gif

I think I'm going to give this thread a rest for now. I'm not sure what I can demonstrate even when I do have more samples to contribute. Even if I / we continue to find the same "better master-to-same master" ratio as what we have so far, I don't think it would convince that many to run right out and get new TTs and sound cards to do vinyl transfers.

It would be great (for me at least) to know exactly which albums are like the obvious ones here so I could just buy those and CDs/digital for most of the rest of the releases I want. I know it's just a pipe-dream but my life would be a bit easier.



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2Bdecided
post Jan 10 2013, 16:13
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Actually, I think it would be wonderful to have a collection of proper information about which releases are audibly better on vinyl due to the CDs having clipping/DRC, and the LPs having less/none.

Useful for collectors and listeners, and a timely prod to the audio industry.

Cheers,
David.
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Engelsstaub
post Jan 10 2013, 17:16
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I'll try to do my part in the near future. Maybe about March or so I'll have a bunch more transfers done.

My (modern) vinyl-purchasing is usually quite constrained to one or two specific genres...and even then my choices tend to be a bit obscure by most people's standards. Hopefully down the road a few other people will come along with (more various) examples of their own. I think it's a worthwhile effort too...it has to start somewhere.


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greynol
post Jan 28 2013, 22:29
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I want to revisit this discussion because I just provided a link to it from another discussion and realized that I failed to point out earlier that based on simply viewing the waveforms in the first two posts and my understanding of how vinyl is created and subsequently played back, it appears to me that DRC may have been applied to the CD version above and beyond the source that was used to create the vinyl version for only one title shown: the last one.

IOW, I don't find the visual evidence presented here very compelling in order to conclude that vinyl is typically derived from a different master than the one used to create a CD, FWIW and IMHO.

This post has been edited by greynol: Jan 29 2013, 13:14


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Engelsstaub
post Jan 28 2013, 23:42
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 28 2013, 15:29) *
...it appears to me that DRC may have been applied to the CD version above and beyond the source that was used to create the vinyl version for only one title shown: the last one...


How about Saint Vitus? I hear pretty distinct differences in most examples. I realize that my subjective observations have little place here, but I thought more than just the Woods of Ypres example seemed pretty obvious.


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greynol
post Jan 28 2013, 23:50
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Just the last one. Again this is solely based on how the waveforms appear.

I understand and respect that we are all attempting to be as objective as possible. I'm not discounting objective listening evaluations provided they were well-controlled and acknowledge that waveforms do not necessarily tell the whole story.


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2Bdecided
post Jan 29 2013, 12:03
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This looks like one for the list of vinyl that beats the CD issue:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/cali...-4#post-8180551
(note - it's only the new vinyl, not the old vinyl).
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Kohlrabi
post Jan 29 2013, 16:41
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 29 2013, 12:03) *
This looks like one for the list of vinyl that beats the CD issue:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/cali...-4#post-8180551
(note - it's only the new vinyl, not the old vinyl).
Is there a reason for not putting this new version out on CD or iTunes? Other than finally giving the world the evidence that Vlado Meller has devastating influence on rock music?

This post has been edited by Kohlrabi: Jan 29 2013, 16:41


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Engelsstaub
post Jan 29 2013, 23:35
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QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Jan 29 2013, 09:41) *
...Is there a reason for not putting this new version out on CD or iTunes? ...


In my opinion there's never a reason why a good-sounding master, as found on any LP, shouldn't be put to CD or iTunes. (And I say that as one who likes and purchases vinyl as much or more than digital.)

EDIT: I don't mean any LP has a better sounding master than the CD. Poorly-worded perhaps.

This post has been edited by Engelsstaub: Jan 29 2013, 23:50


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