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Modern Vinyl "Masters" vs. CD--My Experience, It Really IS About the Music
Engelsstaub
post Dec 5 2012, 18:59
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Due to some recent past experiences in other threads wherein some members (who plainly state their honest dislike of vinyl) claim that modern LPs are just as dynamically clipped as their CD-counterparts, I'd like to take an opportunity to illustrate that this is IME not the case. I've heard it stated more than once that "vinyl is not about the music..it's about the ritual.) This is seemingly just plain-old lazy bias. It can easily be forgiven in that these posters make it pretty obvious that they don't purchase vinyl, let alone compare modern releases to their CD-counterparts.

Here are screenshots from needledrops I've done of some of my favorite recent records. All but one were released in the past two years. Warrel Dane's "Praises to the War Machine" was released in 2008. (As a fun side-note, the vinyl LP came with the CD and was limited to 1,000 copies worldwide.)

I would like to note that I did not cherry-pick these examples. I only have about three more needledrops that I also have a CD copy or iTunes Matched version of. I can upload those as well. It should also be noted that all of these examples are on the heavier-side of the metal genre and probably are far more dense in sound than most other examples from other genres.

I've brought each vinyl recording up to 0.1 under 0 dB for easier comparison. None of the peaks are "pops" or any artifacts associated with the LP medium. Only one had a "pop" that hit the ceiling and I corrected it before applying gain.


Borknagar - "The Earthling" from "Urd" (2012)

LP



iTunes Matched AAC




In Flames - "Ropes" from "Sounds of a Playground Fading" (2011)

LP



CD



(This album is an egregious example of how bad they can make a modern CD sound through destructive normalization.)


Saint Vitus - "Let Them Fall" from "Lillie: F-65" (2012)

LP



CD



(Yes, really. It sounds worse than it looks IME.)


Warrel Dane - "Brother" from "Praises to the War Machine" (2008)

LP



CD




Septicflesh - "Oceans of Grey" from "The Great Mass" (2011)

LP



CD




[continued in next post due to apparent image constraints]


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Engelsstaub
post Jan 9 2013, 00:02
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Here is the DR value analysis of the CD (FLAC rip) Woods of Ypres' "Woods IV: The Green Album" prior to any further processing. (I chose this particular one because it is, to me, one of the most offensively smashed of my original examples in comparison to the vinyl.)

CODE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: /Users/Jay/Music/Vinyl Rips/Vinyl Rips/Woods of Ypres/CD
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR5 -0.30 dB -8.91 dB 01 - Shards Of Love (Hurt Forever).wav
DR4 -0.30 dB -5.25 dB 02 - Everything I Touch Turns To Gold (Then To Coal).wav
DR5 -0.30 dB -6.72 dB 03 - By The Time You Read This (I Will Already Be Dead).wav
DR5 -0.30 dB -7.61 dB 04 - I Was Buried In Mount Pleasant Cemetery.wav
DR4 -0.30 dB -6.50 dB (null)
DR5 -0.30 dB -6.73 dB 06 - Pining (For You).wav
DR5 -0.30 dB -5.93 dB 07 - Wet Leather.wav
DR4 -0.35 dB -6.09 dB 08 - Suicide Cargoload (Drag That Weight).wav
DR4 -0.30 dB -5.98 dB 09 - Halves And Quarters.wav
DR7 -0.35 dB -8.38 dB 10 - You Are Here With Me (In This Sequence Of Dreams).wav
DR5 -0.35 dB -7.17 dB 11 - Retrosleep In The Morning Calm.wav
DR4 -0.30 dB -5.94 dB (null)
DR4 -0.30 dB -5.70 dB 13 - Natural Technologies.wav
DR4 -0.30 dB -5.99 dB 14 - Mirror Reflection & The Hammer Reinvention.wav
DR5 -0.35 dB -6.42 dB 15 - Our Union (In Limbo).wav
DR6 -0.35 dB -7.72 dB 16 - Move On! (The Woman Will Always Leave The Man).wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 16
Official DR value: DR5

==============================================================================================



As per David's suggestion I processed the CD for Woods IV: The Green Album in iZotope RX2 Advanced by dropping the gain of all tracks by about -6 dB. Here are the results following that...

CODE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: /Users/Jay/Music/Vinyl Rips/Vinyl Rips/Woods of Ypres/CD/-6db
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR5 -6.34 dB -14.95 dB 01 - Shards Of Love (Hurt Forever).wav
DR4 -6.34 dB -11.29 dB 02 - Everything I Touch Turns To Gold (Then To Coal).wav
DR5 -6.34 dB -12.76 dB 03 - By The Time You Read This (I Will Already Be Dead).wav
DR5 -6.34 dB -13.65 dB 04 - I Was Buried In Mount Pleasant Cemetery.wav
DR4 -6.34 dB -12.54 dB (null)
DR5 -6.34 dB -12.77 dB 06 - Pining (For You).wav
DR5 -6.34 dB -11.97 dB 07 - Wet Leather.wav
DR4 -6.39 dB -12.13 dB 08 - Suicide Cargoload (Drag That Weight).wav
DR4 -6.34 dB -12.02 dB 09 - Halves And Quarters.wav
DR7 -6.39 dB -14.42 dB 10 - You Are Here With Me (In This Sequence Of Dreams).wav
DR5 -6.39 dB -13.21 dB 11 - Retrosleep In The Morning Calm.wav
DR4 -6.34 dB -11.98 dB (null)
DR4 -6.34 dB -11.75 dB 13 - Natural Technologies.wav
DR4 -6.34 dB -12.03 dB 14 - Mirror Reflection & The Hammer Reinvention.wav
DR5 -6.39 dB -12.46 dB 15 - Our Union (In Limbo).wav
DR6 -6.39 dB -13.76 dB 16 - Move On! (The Woman Will Always Leave The Man).wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 16
Official DR value: DR5

==============================================================================================



I used the AU PhaseNudge plugin (Kees de Visser's suggestion,) via iZotope RX2 with the settings shown in my previous illustration, to then further process those files. It did indeed seem to influence the DR analysis.

CODE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: /Users/Jay/Music/Vinyl Rips/Vinyl Rips/Woods of Ypres/CD AU phase nudge
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR9 -2.65 dB -15.22 dB 01 - Shards Of Love (Hurt Forever).wav
DR9 -1.95 dB -11.64 dB 02 - Everything I Touch Turns To Gold (Then To Coal).wav
DR9 -2.36 dB -13.06 dB 03 - By The Time You Read This (I Will Already Be Dead).wav
DR9 -2.13 dB -13.95 dB 04 - I Was Buried In Mount Pleasant Cemetery.wav
DR9 -1.98 dB -12.87 dB (null)
DR9 -2.50 dB -13.07 dB 06 - Pining (For You).wav
DR9 -2.11 dB -12.30 dB 07 - Wet Leather.wav
DR9 -2.09 dB -12.47 dB 08 - Suicide Cargoload (Drag That Weight).wav
DR9 -2.26 dB -12.36 dB 09 - Halves And Quarters.wav
DR9 -3.71 dB -14.67 dB 10 - You Are Here With Me (In This Sequence Of Dreams).wav
DR10 -2.03 dB -13.51 dB 11 - Retrosleep In The Morning Calm.wav
DR9 -2.13 dB -12.31 dB (null)
DR9 -1.71 dB -12.09 dB 13 - Natural Technologies.wav
DR9 -1.91 dB -12.37 dB 14 - Mirror Reflection & The Hammer Reinvention.wav
DR9 -2.00 dB -12.77 dB 15 - Our Union (In Limbo).wav
DR9 -2.49 dB -14.05 dB 16 - Move On! (The Woman Will Always Leave The Man).wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 16
Official DR value: DR9

==============================================================================================



Here is the original DR analysis of my vinyl transfer (after a few clicks were removed.)

CODE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: /Users/Jay/Music/Vinyl Rips/Vinyl Rips/Woods of Ypres/Woods IV- The Green Album
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -3.86 dB -20.48 dB 01 - Shards of Love (Hurt Forever).wav
DR12 -2.71 dB -16.50 dB 02 - Everything I Touch Turns To Gold (Then To Coal).wav
DR13 -2.53 dB -18.18 dB 03 - By The Time You Read This (I Will Already Be Dead).wav
DR13 -3.81 dB -19.43 dB 04 - I Was Buried In Mount Pleasant Cemetery.wav
DR12 -2.92 dB -16.83 dB 05 - Into Exile- Can You Get Here in 10 Days.wav
DR12 -3.07 dB -17.17 dB 06 - Pining (For You).wav
DR12 -2.50 dB -16.17 dB 07 - Wet Leather.wav
DR11 -2.76 dB -16.30 dB 08 - Suicide Cargoload (Drag that Weight!).wav
DR11 -2.64 dB -15.34 dB 09 - Halves and Quarters.wav
DR11 -6.06 dB -18.43 dB 10 - You Are Here with Me (In This Sequence of Dreams).wav
DR12 -3.59 dB -16.75 dB 11 - Retrosleep in the Morning Calm.wav
DR11 -0.84 dB -13.92 dB 12 - Don't Open The Wounds (Skywide Armspread).wav
DR12 -1.44 dB -15.77 dB 13 - Natural Technologies.wav
DR12 -1.43 dB -15.84 dB 14 - Mirror Reflection (And The Hammer Re-Invention).wav
DR12 -2.86 dB -17.06 dB 15 - Our Union (in Limbo).wav
DR12 -3.66 dB -18.30 dB 16 - Move On! (The Woman Will Always Leave The Man).wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 16
Official DR value: DR12

==============================================================================================



Sooo...I'm honestly not sure what I"m to conclude from this so please bear with me. Am I to conclude that the DR analysis tool is not to be trusted because screwing with the phase of a recording will make it look like it has more DR (or more like the vinyl "master" as in this instance?) (Does this, by extension, imply that the sound on a record could be so screwed that it would also give the false indication of more dynamic range?)



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Posts in this topic
- Engelsstaub   Modern Vinyl "Masters" vs. CD--My Experience   Dec 5 2012, 18:59
- - Engelsstaub   Dimmu Borgir - "Born Treacherous" from ...   Dec 5 2012, 19:00
|- - Nessuno   Never actually made measurement of the sort, but m...   Dec 5 2012, 19:24
|- - StephenPG   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 5 2012, 20:24) Never...   Dec 5 2012, 22:14
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (StephenPG @ Dec 5 2012, 16:14) QUO...   Dec 5 2012, 23:24
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (krabapple @ Dec 5 2012, 23:24) QUO...   Dec 6 2012, 10:26
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 6 2012, 04:26) Yes, ...   Dec 7 2012, 17:42
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (krabapple @ Dec 7 2012, 17:42) Why...   Dec 8 2012, 10:46
- - Engelsstaub   Probably not I think people who produce classical...   Dec 5 2012, 19:29
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 5 2012, 19:29) I...   Dec 5 2012, 20:05
|- - rgtb   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 5 2012, 19:29) M...   Dec 5 2012, 20:25
- - [JAZ]   @Engelsstaub: While I agree that probably more car...   Dec 5 2012, 20:08
- - Engelsstaub   @ Porcus: I'm going to try to get a few sample...   Dec 5 2012, 20:22
- - Engelsstaub   I think it should be a bit more clear that we...   Dec 5 2012, 20:59
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 5 2012, 19:59) I...   Dec 6 2012, 11:28
- - almostmitch   I like what I see especially after just taking th...   Dec 5 2012, 21:32
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (almostmitch @ Dec 5 2012, 14:32) I...   Dec 5 2012, 21:41
- - [JAZ]   I'll wait for the samples, to see what I can g...   Dec 5 2012, 21:45
- - Triza   I left the rock scene primarily because of bad mas...   Dec 5 2012, 21:50
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Triza @ Dec 5 2012, 14:50) I left ...   Dec 5 2012, 21:59
- - almostmitch   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 5 2012, 15:59) A...   Dec 5 2012, 22:22
- - [JAZ]   Mmm... after a few tests, I cannot get what I want...   Dec 5 2012, 22:56
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Dec 5 2012, 15:56)...   Dec 6 2012, 00:46
- - krabapple   You can't turned a hard limited (as in a limit...   Dec 5 2012, 23:13
- - krabapple   And please, before you conclude that vinyl 'so...   Dec 5 2012, 23:27
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (krabapple @ Dec 5 2012, 16:27) And...   Dec 6 2012, 00:41
- - mjb2006   Can you upload a clip of one of the AAC files and ...   Dec 6 2012, 01:57
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (mjb2006 @ Dec 5 2012, 18:57) Can y...   Dec 6 2012, 02:27
|- - mjb2006   No, I mean, start with the AAC file and "appl...   Dec 6 2012, 02:44
- - extrabigmehdi   Well, just by looking at the graphs I wouldn...   Dec 6 2012, 03:56
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Dec 5 2012, 20:56)...   Dec 6 2012, 04:04
|- - extrabigmehdi   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 6 2012, 03:04) D...   Dec 6 2012, 04:43
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Dec 5 2012, 21:43)...   Dec 6 2012, 06:35
- - Engelsstaub   I've no software on the Macintosh platform tha...   Dec 6 2012, 03:56
- - hlloyge   I've replaygained Ropes sample and played them...   Dec 6 2012, 09:25
- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (krabapple @ Dec 5 2012, 23:13) You...   Dec 6 2012, 12:06
- - Kohlrabi   While I agree it is likely worthwhile to get into ...   Dec 6 2012, 13:33
|- - rgtb   QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Dec 6 2012, 13:33) Are ...   Dec 6 2012, 13:58
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (rgtb @ Dec 6 2012, 13:58) I don...   Dec 6 2012, 15:46
|- - DVDdoug   Most of my CDs don't "look" that bad...   Dec 6 2012, 20:36
- - almostmitch   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 5 2012, 18:41) @...   Dec 6 2012, 15:46
- - 2Bdecided   I've checked out "the earthling". Th...   Dec 6 2012, 17:45
- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Dec 6 2012, 02:25) I...   Dec 6 2012, 17:48
- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 6 2012, 03:26) ... G...   Dec 6 2012, 17:56
- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Dec 6 2012, 13:36) ...I...   Dec 6 2012, 20:56
- - mjb2006   Assuming the QuickTime trim function doesn't t...   Dec 7 2012, 11:20
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (mjb2006 @ Dec 7 2012, 10:20) I wou...   Dec 10 2012, 14:00
- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (mjb2006 @ Dec 7 2012, 04:20) Assum...   Dec 7 2012, 16:31
- - mixminus1   My thoughts exactly. I'd be very surprised if...   Dec 7 2012, 19:20
- - mjb2006   I'm wondering if we should change the vinyl my...   Dec 7 2012, 22:07
- - greynol   OT regarding the wiki: I would strive to make the ...   Dec 7 2012, 22:44
|- - dhromed   In light of this thread, I de-sweep my earlier swe...   Dec 8 2012, 13:20
- - Engelsstaub   Agreed. My personal vote (assuming I even have one...   Dec 7 2012, 23:49
- - RonaldDumsfeld   Impressive and thought provoking thread. Thanks E...   Dec 8 2012, 01:47
- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (RonaldDumsfeld @ Dec 7 2012, 18:47...   Dec 8 2012, 17:12
|- - GeSomeone   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 8 2012, 17:12) I...   Dec 10 2012, 22:03
- - Engelsstaub   I had to go back nearly ten years (in pressing dat...   Dec 10 2012, 18:30
|- - Blueshirt   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 10 2012, 18:30) ...   Dec 10 2012, 20:39
- - Gecko   I just had a quick listen to the "Heathen Thr...   Dec 10 2012, 20:11
- - greynol   BTW, just because a straight line in a waveform mi...   Dec 10 2012, 20:20
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 10 2012, 21:20) BTW,...   Dec 11 2012, 09:04
- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Gecko @ Dec 10 2012, 13:11) I just...   Dec 10 2012, 21:25
- - Engelsstaub   Well that's disappointing to hear. I'm gl...   Dec 10 2012, 23:20
- - Engelsstaub   I'm bumping in the interest of continued relev...   Jan 4 2013, 19:08
- - gnypp45   I haven't read this thread in detail, but I wo...   Jan 4 2013, 22:35
- - DVDdoug   QUOTE Indeed the crest factor of the allpass filte...   Jan 4 2013, 23:04
- - Engelsstaub   I'm not even sure what proof we still require ...   Jan 5 2013, 00:37
|- - rgtb   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 5 2013, 00:37) I...   Jan 5 2013, 09:39
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (rgtb @ Jan 5 2013, 09:39) given vi...   Jan 5 2013, 10:51
||- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (rgtb @ Jan 5 2013, 02:39) ... give...   Jan 5 2013, 12:01
|- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 5 2013, 00:37) I...   Jan 5 2013, 09:47
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Jan 5 2013, 02:47) ...I...   Jan 5 2013, 12:10
- - DVDdoug   QUOTE So I guess my question now is this: is the T...   Jan 5 2013, 01:34
- - hlloyge   I think that there is one mastering proces where t...   Jan 5 2013, 16:02
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Jan 5 2013, 09:02) I thi...   Jan 5 2013, 17:02
|- - GeSomeone   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 5 2013, 17:02) [...   Jan 5 2013, 18:46
- - Engelsstaub   Yes, I don't doubt that that is quite possibly...   Jan 6 2013, 17:47
- - 2Bdecided   I don't have anything recent on both vinyl and...   Jan 7 2013, 15:46
- - Engelsstaub   Sounds like a good idea, David. I can easily figur...   Jan 7 2013, 18:21
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 7 2013, 18:21) D...   Jan 7 2013, 21:00
- - Engelsstaub   Thanks, Kees de Visser. Apparently iZotope RX2 do...   Jan 7 2013, 21:55
- - DVDdoug   QUOTE Does anyone know of a suitable all-pass filt...   Jan 7 2013, 23:02
- - Engelsstaub   Here is the DR value analysis of the CD (FLAC rip)...   Jan 9 2013, 00:02
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 8 2013, 15:02) D...   Jan 9 2013, 01:41
- - Engelsstaub   I'm struggling to believe that the LP, even t...   Jan 9 2013, 03:23
|- - 2Bdecided   Thank you for posting those results Engelsstaub. ...   Jan 9 2013, 11:07
- - greynol   Beats not knowing that such an effect exists.   Jan 9 2013, 04:16
- - Engelsstaub   Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification. I know some...   Jan 9 2013, 16:33
- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 9 2013, 16:33) ....   Jan 9 2013, 16:58
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Jan 9 2013, 09:58) If y...   Jan 10 2013, 00:12
- - greynol   Remove the b.   Jan 10 2013, 00:16
- - Engelsstaub   Even better I think I'm going to give this...   Jan 10 2013, 00:31
- - 2Bdecided   Actually, I think it would be wonderful to have a ...   Jan 10 2013, 16:13
- - Engelsstaub   I'll try to do my part in the near future. May...   Jan 10 2013, 17:16
- - greynol   I want to revisit this discussion because I just p...   Jan 28 2013, 22:29
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 28 2013, 15:29) ...i...   Jan 28 2013, 23:42
- - greynol   Just the last one. Again this is solely based on ...   Jan 28 2013, 23:50
- - 2Bdecided   This looks like one for the list of vinyl that bea...   Jan 29 2013, 12:03
- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 29 2013, 12:03) Th...   Jan 29 2013, 16:41
- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Jan 29 2013, 09:41) ......   Jan 29 2013, 23:35
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