IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Streaming FLAC over the Internet, Split from "The Future of FLAC"
andrewfg
post Nov 22 2012, 12:06
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 84
Joined: 12-May 08
Member No.: 53478



IMHO flac has one technical weakness that will prevent it taking off as THE standard -- namely it only has Variable Bit Rate compression algorithms. Which means that one cannot predict in advance the length of ouput file that will be generated for any input stream.

This is a problem when you want to transcode another format of audio file to flac and stream it over Http. The Http protocol requires sending a Content Length (number of bytes) header at the start of the streaming process. With flac you cannot know the number of bytes until after the full file has been transcoded. So this means that Http must either wait until the full transcoding has been completed, or alternatively if it wants to start streaming the data immediately, then it must provide some guessed value in its Content Length header (and this is not conformant to the Http specifications, and may cause problems in some music players...)

By contrast, if you are (say) transcoding to mp3 and streaming that via Http, then the transcoder can select a Constant Bit Rate compression algorithm. And in such a case, the Http Content Length is easily calculated in advance as being the input audio file's duration (in seconds) multiplied by the CBR rate (in bytes per second).

So if the flac standard were extended to allow both the existing Variable Bit Rate compression algorithm plus a new Constant Bit Rate option, then it would become much better suited for online streaming.

This post has been edited by andrewfg: Nov 22 2012, 12:07


--------------------
AndrewFG (Whitebear -- http://www.whitebear.ch/mediaserver )
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
greynol
post Nov 24 2012, 00:58
Post #2





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 10000
Joined: 1-April 04
From: San Francisco
Member No.: 13167



QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 23 2012, 14:49) *
If you want to submit some math to prove me wrong, please feel free to do so.

That's a use of the flying spaghetti monster defense we don't typically see with some argument from authority sprinkled in which we do typically see. smile.gif

Despite your insistence that you're smarter than the rest of us, I think I'll wait until I see your idea put into action and take note of what those CBR bitrates actually are, thanks. I won't be holding my breath on the bitrates being interesting, let alone the idea being implemented; in other words, I think we'll chalk this up as a fail on your part after it is all said and done.

In the meantime, does anyone know of a program that displays a histogram of bitrates from flac and hopefully some of the other more popular lossless formats?

QUOTE (funkyblue @ Nov 23 2012, 15:38) *
There we go a CBR Lossless format tongue.gif

Sure, but we already covered that.

This post has been edited by greynol: Nov 24 2012, 01:19


--------------------
I should publish a list of forum idiots.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
andrewfg
post Nov 24 2012, 14:04
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 84
Joined: 12-May 08
Member No.: 53478



QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 24 2012, 00:58) *
Despite your insistence that you're smarter than the rest of us,


Hey look, I am certainly NOT insisting that I am smarter than the rest of you.

I was merely reacting (badly) to the post of "soap" in which he wacked a wiki url ("spaghetti monster") at me and thereby claimed that he is smarter than me.

QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 24 2012, 00:58) *
I think I'll wait until I see your idea put into action and take note of what those CBR bitrates actually are, thanks. I won't be holding my breath on the bitrates being interesting, let alone the idea being implemented; in other words, I think we'll chalk this up as a fail on your part after it is all said and done.


I don't think you should chalk any such "fail" to me. The OP had asked about the future of flac. And I indicated that there is a specific weakness of flac in relation to its use for online streaming that could be detrimental to its future penetration in media servers and renderers. And I have proposed a possible solution. I don't think it is a "fail" on my behalf if that proposed solution would not be implemented. But it would sadly be a "fail" on behalf of the flac community, if the format were to die out because the community failed to look into this weakness.

It would be nice if others on this thread would be a little more humble in listening to criticisms, rather than (try to) shoot the messenger...



--------------------
AndrewFG (Whitebear -- http://www.whitebear.ch/mediaserver )
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Soap
post Nov 24 2012, 14:21
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 1015
Joined: 19-November 06
Member No.: 37767



QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 24 2012, 09:04) *
I was merely reacting (badly) to the post of "soap" in which he wacked a wiki url ("spaghetti monster") at me and thereby claimed that he is smarter than me.


Well, "andrewfg", I'd love a cite of where I claimed I was smarter than you, but that is beside the point:

QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 24 2012, 09:04) *
And I indicated that there is a specific weakness of flac in relation to its use for online streaming that could be detrimental to its future penetration in media servers and renderers.


You mentioned a specific weakness of VBR encodings where the stream length is undetermined, not a weakness in a particular format but (as was pointed out) a weakness in any VBR compressed format. You went on to claim (and this is the meat of the issue) that one could make a lossless compressed format which was CBR. This is the claim which was responded to and quoted by me, and the claim which is indefensible. Curiously it is also the discussion you are currently choosing to ignore.



--------------------
Creature of habit.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- andrewfg   Streaming FLAC over the Internet   Nov 22 2012, 12:06
- - greynol   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 22 2012, 03:06) IMH...   Nov 22 2012, 12:15
|- - andrewfg   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 22 2012, 12:15) Name...   Nov 22 2012, 12:19
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 22 2012, 12:19) It ...   Nov 22 2012, 19:24
|- - andrewfg   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Nov 22 2012, 19:24...   Nov 22 2012, 22:35
- - 2Bdecided   By definition, lossless compressed formats can...   Nov 22 2012, 12:26
|- - andrewfg   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 22 2012, 12:26) By...   Nov 22 2012, 22:28
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 22 2012, 22:28) QUO...   Nov 22 2012, 23:49
||- - Soap   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 22 2012, 17:28) QUO...   Nov 23 2012, 00:19
||- - andrewfg   QUOTE (Soap @ Nov 23 2012, 00:19) You can...   Nov 23 2012, 23:49
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 23 2012, 23:49) Nev...   Nov 24 2012, 02:20
||- - Soap   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 23 2012, 18:49) ......   Nov 24 2012, 03:44
||- - andrewfg   QUOTE (Soap @ Nov 24 2012, 03:44) Congrat...   Nov 24 2012, 14:52
|- - funkyblue   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 22 2012, 21:26) By...   Nov 23 2012, 10:45
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (funkyblue @ Nov 23 2012, 10:45) Wh...   Nov 23 2012, 11:00
|- - funkyblue   QUOTE (Porcus @ Nov 23 2012, 20:00) QUOTE...   Nov 23 2012, 11:19
|- - includemeout   QUOTE (Porcus @ Nov 23 2012, 12:00) (...)...   Nov 23 2012, 22:28
|- - funkyblue   QUOTE (Porcus @ Nov 23 2012, 20:00) QUOTE...   Nov 24 2012, 00:20
|- - andrewfg   QUOTE (funkyblue @ Nov 24 2012, 00:20) Fo...   Nov 24 2012, 00:30
|- - Wombat   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 24 2012, 01:30) I a...   Nov 24 2012, 00:39
- - Nekit1234007   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 22 2012, 15:06) The...   Nov 22 2012, 12:45
|- - andrewfg   QUOTE (Nekit1234007 @ Nov 22 2012, 12:45)...   Nov 22 2012, 22:31
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 22 2012, 22:31) I a...   Nov 23 2012, 21:17
|- - andrewfg   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Nov 23 2012, 21:17...   Nov 24 2012, 00:09
- - Porcus   If this is still relevant after [JAZ]'s clarif...   Nov 22 2012, 19:48
|- - andrewfg   QUOTE (Porcus @ Nov 22 2012, 19:48) FLAC ...   Nov 22 2012, 22:37
- - funkyblue   It is an option in dBpoweramp. http://www.audiost...   Nov 24 2012, 00:38
- - greynol   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 23 2012, 14:49) If ...   Nov 24 2012, 00:58
|- - andrewfg   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 24 2012, 00:58) Desp...   Nov 24 2012, 14:04
|- - Soap   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 24 2012, 09:04) I w...   Nov 24 2012, 14:21
|- - andrewfg   QUOTE (Soap @ Nov 24 2012, 14:21) You men...   Nov 24 2012, 18:22
|- - greynol   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 24 2012, 09:22) if ...   Nov 24 2012, 18:32
|- - tuffy   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 24 2012, 12:22) The...   Nov 24 2012, 18:48
|- - Soap   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 24 2012, 12:22) No....   Nov 24 2012, 19:20
|- - andrewfg   QUOTE (Soap @ Nov 24 2012, 19:20) That is...   Nov 25 2012, 01:10
|- - Soap   QUOTE (andrewfg @ Nov 24 2012, 19:10) Act...   Nov 25 2012, 01:29
- - funkyblue   I realise that but the link posted a bunch of cryp...   Nov 24 2012, 01:10
- - 73ChargerFan   Seeking - store a seek table in the header, say fo...   Nov 24 2012, 02:02
- - greynol   You pad and your compression goes out the window. ...   Nov 24 2012, 03:51
- - saratoga   I guess in principle you'd have to pad for at ...   Nov 24 2012, 03:55
- - greynol   If you could manage to ensure that the only data t...   Nov 24 2012, 04:00
- - Porcus   Well if you are encoding the signal in advance, yo...   Nov 24 2012, 11:36
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Porcus @ Nov 24 2012, 02:36) Well ...   Nov 24 2012, 15:24
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 24 2012, 15:24) QUOT...   Nov 25 2012, 01:15
- - greynol   @andrewfg: Read my edit.   Nov 24 2012, 18:48
- - greynol   Axon posted a script to generate histograms and in...   Nov 25 2012, 05:39
|- - Axon   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 24 2012, 22:39) AFAI...   Nov 25 2012, 06:34
- - 2Bdecided   I knew I should have brought popcorn.   Nov 26 2012, 14:09


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st September 2014 - 22:07