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Should HA promote a more rigorous listening test protocol?, was: "HA -- guilty as charged?" (TOS #6)
krabapple
post Nov 23 2012, 19:01
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I was taken aback to read today this exchange on gearslutz, from earlier this year

QUOTE ("Bob Ohlsson")
It's important to understand that what JJ considers a listening test and what the ABX/Hydogen Audio skeptics crowd considers a listening test are two very very different things.


QUOTE (Kees de Visser")
Perhaps JJ can explain what he considers a listening test and how it's different from the Hydrogenaudio standpoint.
I was somehow under the impression they were not that different.


QUOTE ("j_j")
Including positive and negative controls, lots of training for the test as well as familiarity with the equipment and music, and equiment validation are the biggies.

Test evaluation might be an issue, too. Many tests, including some of the MPEG tests and 1116 make assumptions that the entire population reacts the same to impairments. While basic masking is universal, what people dislike when they can hear something is NOT universal.



http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7672621-post329.html
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7674886-post337.html
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7677113-post348.html


Now, I agree with Kees -- I don't think the HA community 'take' on listening tests is that different from what JJ mentions. Few here, I suspect, would dismiss the real utility of training , or of positive controls, or familiarity etc., in making a listening test maximally sensitive. (as for the rest, I confess I;m not really clear whether JJ's criciticsm of test evaluation is directed at HA)

What I think is happening is a difference in what listening tests are used for. Most individual HA reports of ABX tests are from users wanting to know if file X sounds different from file Y to them, as they are now, using the equipment they have, not as they would be after training to hear artifacts, on the most revealing equipment. They aren't doing basic research into a difference's audibility, as JJ did, for example, when developing lossy codecs. For that purpose, trained listeners, positive & negative controls, familiarity and 'validated' equipment are necessities.

Still, HA *does* host mass listening tests from time to time -- which are more akin to 'basic research' -- and its few 'official' guidelines on setting up listening tests -- the HA wiki, and Pio's sticky threads -- make no mention of training, +/- controls, etc. as factors in such tests.

Time to change this?

This post has been edited by krabapple: Nov 23 2012, 19:05
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IgorC
post Nov 28 2012, 08:03
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Got it.
The idea of positive and negative controls is actually good. It's similiar to MPEG's rules of post-screening:

QUOTE
Post-screening of listener responses should be applied as follows. If, for any test item in a given test, either of the following criterion are not satisfied:
• The listener score for the hidden reference is greater than or equal to 90 (i.e. HR >= 90)
• The listener scores the hidden reference, the 7.0 kHz lowpass anchor and the 3.5 kHz lowpass anchor are monotonically decreasing (i.e. HR >= LP70 >= LP35).
Then all listener responses in that test are removed from consideration.


Only one thing, probably an inclusion of a hidden reference (negative control) will reduce the amount of testing codecs.
But that's up to open discussion.


Also it's worth to notice that the rules for the last two public tests are hard to name as toothless despite it has only one low anchor and no hidden refence. If You look through the results the listeners who were guessing quite often have picked up a few time reference and by rules all their results were invalidated (probably the same effect as to have an additional hidden reference).
rules.txt is in folder "Sorted by listener"
http://listening-tests.hydrogenaudio.org/i...ous/results.zip

After all I think your technique is not that far from the one which we were applying. Two low anchors is actually great IMO.

P.S. Went to sleep

This post has been edited by IgorC: Nov 28 2012, 08:04
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Posts in this topic
- krabapple   Should HA promote a more rigorous listening test protocol?   Nov 23 2012, 19:01
- - saratoga   Lots of the personal listening tests are by people...   Nov 23 2012, 19:16
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (saratoga @ Nov 23 2012, 13:16) Lot...   Nov 24 2012, 04:10
- - greynol   Pio's post does make mention of relegating ABX...   Nov 23 2012, 19:24
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 23 2012, 13:24) Pio...   Nov 24 2012, 04:02
- - Canar   With all due respect to Mr. J., while his criticis...   Nov 23 2012, 23:16
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Canar @ Nov 23 2012, 17:16) With a...   Nov 24 2012, 04:09
|- - greynol   QUOTE (krabapple @ Nov 23 2012, 19:09) Wo...   Nov 24 2012, 17:36
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 24 2012, 11:36) QUOT...   Nov 25 2012, 16:34
|- - greynol   QUOTE (krabapple @ Nov 25 2012, 07:34) QU...   Nov 25 2012, 18:17
- - Canar   Honestly, I think our procedure is fine, given wha...   Nov 24 2012, 04:39
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Canar @ Nov 23 2012, 22:39) Honest...   Nov 24 2012, 14:07
- - greynol   My concern about people coming here to argue that ...   Nov 24 2012, 05:00
- - Axon   There's a tradeoff going on here. One the one...   Nov 25 2012, 08:04
- - Woodinville   Ok, I'm a little confused here. How does what ...   Nov 25 2012, 09:20
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Nov 25 2012, 00:20) ...   Nov 25 2012, 17:31
- - Porcus   I agree with Axon, if that is what is being discus...   Nov 26 2012, 08:25
- - 2Bdecided   Do that many tests meet BS.1116? It's a long t...   Nov 26 2012, 13:58
- - dhromed   I am frankly surprised that there is no sticky at ...   Nov 26 2012, 14:22
- - IgorC   Great. A lot of problem statements. Now people can...   Nov 26 2012, 18:14
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (IgorC @ Nov 26 2012, 09:14) Sorry,...   Nov 27 2012, 02:27
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Nov 26 2012, 20:27) ...   Nov 27 2012, 15:31
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Nov 26 2012, 22:27) ...   Nov 27 2012, 17:43
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (IgorC @ Nov 27 2012, 17:43) You ju...   Nov 27 2012, 18:12
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Porcus @ Nov 27 2012, 09:12) Also,...   Nov 27 2012, 23:05
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (Porcus @ Nov 27 2012, 14:12) If an...   Nov 28 2012, 02:12
- - greynol   Krabapple, the author of this discussion, did in f...   Nov 26 2012, 18:30
- - Canar   With the talk about "including positive and n...   Nov 26 2012, 18:38
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Canar @ Nov 26 2012, 09:38) With t...   Nov 27 2012, 02:32
|- - Dynamic   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Nov 27 2012, 01:32) ...   Nov 27 2012, 15:05
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Dynamic @ Nov 27 2012, 09:05) I th...   Nov 27 2012, 15:40
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Dynamic @ Nov 27 2012, 06:05) We u...   Nov 27 2012, 23:03
- - Canar   There's a concept that might be useful: ...   Nov 27 2012, 20:21
- - IgorC   Let's suppose two separate tests and 3 codecs:...   Nov 28 2012, 01:17
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (IgorC @ Nov 27 2012, 16:17) Let...   Nov 28 2012, 04:03
- - IgorC   Indeed it's a different one. I took just one ...   Nov 28 2012, 05:00
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (IgorC @ Nov 27 2012, 20:00) Do You...   Nov 28 2012, 06:40
- - IgorC   Got it. The idea of positive and negative control...   Nov 28 2012, 08:03
- - greynol   Not really JJ's technique, but that which is c...   Nov 28 2012, 08:15
- - 2Bdecided   I agree that using controls is necessary in a prop...   Nov 28 2012, 12:05
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 28 2012, 08:05) e....   Nov 28 2012, 17:41
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (IgorC @ Nov 28 2012, 08:41) QUOTE ...   Nov 28 2012, 18:35
- - Dynamic   Good point, David. I guess a rough and ready pre-...   Nov 28 2012, 15:54
- - greynol   If the contenders are statistically tied, changing...   Nov 28 2012, 16:51
- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 28 2012, 07:51) If t...   Nov 28 2012, 18:32
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Nov 28 2012, 09:32) ...   Nov 28 2012, 19:00
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 28 2012, 10:00) QUOT...   Nov 28 2012, 19:15
- - Dynamic   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 28 2012, 15:51) If t...   Nov 28 2012, 20:08
- - IgorC   QUOTE (Dynamic @ Nov 28 2012, 16:08) My p...   Nov 29 2012, 01:04


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