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Beatles remasters soon available on vinyl
2Bdecided
post Sep 28 2012, 11:35
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Stereo 12th / 13th November...
http://thebeatles.com/#/news/Vinyl

Mono coming in 2013.


I'm just waiting for the first claim of how much better they sound than the CDs.

For me, the only vaguely interesting thing is whether these will be cut without peak limiting. Given that they applied the same peak limiting to the 24-bit ultra-expensive USB apple release, I doubt we'll escape it here.


However, it'll (hopefully!) be a much cheaper way of owning and playing Beatles vinyl than tracking down originals, and they'll sound better than most of the 1988 vinyl remasters. (Though for Help and Rubber Soul, they'll be the same masters!). The Beatles website is mostly selling the "experience" of playing vinyl, rather than any actual sonic superiority. How strange for a vinyl press release to be TOS 8 compliant!

Cheers,
David.

P.S. and so it starts...
QUOTE
linuxglobe on 27th Sep 12: “I just want to own Sgt. Pepper and Abbey Road on audiophile 180 gram vinyl; I have a usb turntable, easily import into my iPhone! I *HEART* Los Beatles!!! biggrin.gif @MarkusMcLaughln
Yeah, 'cause obviously...
digital file > vinyl stamper > vinyl > USB turntable(!!!!) > iTunes > iPhone
will sound better than
digital file > CD > iTunes > iPhone!

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Sep 28 2012, 11:35
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greynol
post Oct 2 2012, 22:54
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ABX?!?

Are we now claiming that different masters all sound the same?

Give it a rest.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 2 2012, 22:56


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mzil
post Oct 2 2012, 23:59
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QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 2 2012, 17:54) *
ABX?!?

Are we now claiming that different masters all sound the same?

Give it a rest.

The topic I quoted you on is MFSL releases, not all masters from all sources. What I am asking for is objective evidence to back your claim besides "well just listen to it yourself, can't you hear it?" or "everybody knows". ABX would be one example, but others I would be interested in include measurements showing they have been EQ'd by an amount we all would generally expect to be audible. [many dB, not tenths of a dB, for example] This could come in the form of an independent spectrographic analysis by a third party, or perhaps a statement from MFSL supporting that they do this sort of EQ you claim they do.

TOS #8: "All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims..."

"MFSL ...tend to have exaggerated bass and treble across the board" would be an example of "a statement concerning subjective sound quality". I'm kindly asking for objective evidence to support this statement, that's all.

I never stated my beliefs on the matter, they aren't set in stone, but I have a vague recollection that MFSL claim they do minimal processing.
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Porcus
post Oct 3 2012, 00:12
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Are you saying that you were not trolling when you requested a spectrogram for TOS #8 compliance?


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mzil
post Oct 3 2012, 01:07
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 2 2012, 19:12) *
Are you saying that you were not trolling when you requested a spectrogram for TOS #8 compliance?

I was not trolling. I am asking for evidence to help me make an informed decision.

He made a statement which contradicts my original understanding of how they, MFSL, operate. His statement was regarding EQ. I don't know about you, but the first thing that pops into my head when one needs to measure EQ differences, objectively, was spectrographs, but if they are a sore topic here because they are used for other mischief/shenanigans, as I suspect, then I'm sorry to have brought them up [I'm not a prolific poster or reader of this forum; please note my low post count compared to most of you here]; any other method would be just fine by me.

And just to prove that I'm not pulling this claim that they do minimal (if any) EQ, at all, to their recordings "out of nowhere", and just making it up out of thin air because I am "a troll", as you have just suggested, might I point out that wikipedia pretty much supports this, too:

"As with the company's record pressings, no dynamic range compression was used in the production of the CDs. For the most part, no equalization was used either, so CDs are essentially straight transfers of the original master tape." [emphasis mine]
---

Just for the record, I think a rule that shuns claims of audible differences, without objective evidence to back them, is the coolest thing ever! GO SCIENCE! I'm a strong believer in evidence based science, careful level matching, protocols which eliminate observer bias, and all the other things I get the feeling most people here stand for. However, all these rules should apply to everyone, me included.

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Porcus
post Oct 3 2012, 10:18
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QUOTE (mzil @ Oct 3 2012, 02:07) *
QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 2 2012, 19:12) *
Are you saying that you were not trolling when you requested a spectrogram for TOS #8 compliance?

I was not trolling.


OK. I did assume you were trolling, when you requested a graph, quoted part of TOS #8 and omitted the part that explicitely rules out graphs as acceptable evidence.

Actually I think you are in principle right. I know that is said the most polite way to state a “get real!”, but anyway, argument follows:

- There is no need to prove that different masterings sound different (recall that “mastering” is really a shortened-down phrase for what once was called “pre-mastering”, which is not merely the transfer of audio signal, it has a mixing element to it)
- However, a “remastered” sticker does not prove that any such changes have actually been made. And even if the masters aren't bit-by-bit the same, there need not have been any audible changes made, despite marketing claims to the contrary. And even if it isn't an outright lie, what does a “40th anniversary remaster” really mean? That it was remastered again? Or that they repackaged a previous remaster?
- What is in principle the difference between (I) a marketing buzz trying to fool users to buy a reproduction device that makes no audible difference, and (II) a marketing buzz trying to fool users to buy a new and “improved” release which has no audible difference?


Consider this statement: “The new 'Mastered for iTunes' version sounds much better than the previous one i bought from iTunes last year”.


There is this discussion over the content of TOS#8 where, IMHO, the wording and the practice are not in line. One example could be this – TOS #8 is certainly not suited for comparing music, and not different recordings, and arguably not different (pre-)masterings. Assuming that they are indeed diffferent (pre-)masterings, differing by mixing elements.


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krabapple
post Oct 3 2012, 19:35
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 3 2012, 05:18) *
Actually I think you are in principle right. I know that is said the most polite way to state a “get real!”, but anyway, argument follows:

- There is no need to prove that different masterings sound different



I don't think anyone is asking to see proof of that. The proposition at issue is that MFSL releases have been typically mastered with 'smiley face' EQ. What's being pointed out are the difficulties in proving *that* assertion.

One can say (and measure, and hear) with certainly that mastering X is 'smiley faced' compared to mastering Y, but one is limited to speculating on *why* that is.

It's a pedantic point but I was not sure it was being fully acknowledged here. It has been now.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Oct 3 2012, 19:39
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greynol
post Oct 3 2012, 20:56
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QUOTE (krabapple @ Oct 3 2012, 11:35) *
One can say (and measure, and hear) with certainly that mastering X is 'smiley faced' compared to mastering Y, but one is limited to speculating on *why* that is.

The converse would be that all the other labels are all colluding to employ a frowny face unless it just happened to be done independently by chance. Of course this is still assuming that what you're crying "lore" is actually reality: that people are claiming that most MFSL releases have a "typical sound" and that is regardless of who has walked trough the doors over their history.

It's a pedantic point but I was not sure it was being fully acknowledged here. Has it been now or will it appear to be conveniently overlooked once again?

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 3 2012, 21:21


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mzil
post Oct 3 2012, 21:42
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QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 3 2012, 15:56) *
QUOTE (krabapple @ Oct 3 2012, 11:35) *
One can say (and measure, and hear) with certainly that mastering X is 'smiley faced' compared to mastering Y, but one is limited to speculating on *why* that is.

The converse would be that all the other labels are all colluding to employ a frowny face unless it just happened to be done independently by chance.

That's not the converse of what he said and there's no reason to lump "all other labels" as being just one way, "frowny face EQ" or otherwise. They may all be different from one another, as just one possibility, for example. Another is that they are all the same, or at least very similar, but there are reasons for that and it's not because of chance and not because of collusion.


There is no one "correct" EQ and different companies may be shooting for different ones for many differing reasons/goals.

This post has been edited by mzil: Oct 3 2012, 22:01
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Posts in this topic
- 2Bdecided   Beatles remasters soon available on vinyl   Sep 28 2012, 11:35
- - hlloyge   Aren't the original masters bad sounding, full...   Sep 28 2012, 12:22
|- - markanini   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Sep 28 2012, 13:22) Aren...   Sep 28 2012, 15:44
|- - shakey_snake   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Sep 28 2012, 07:22) Aren...   Sep 29 2012, 03:57
|- - hlloyge   QUOTE (shakey_snake @ Sep 29 2012, 04:57)...   Sep 29 2012, 16:38
- - LordWarlock   Hiss and noise? That's still better than compr...   Sep 28 2012, 12:30
- - derty2   Official technical info on this release... QUOTE M...   Sep 28 2012, 18:35
|- - Blueshirt   QUOTE (derty2 @ Sep 28 2012, 18:35) Offic...   Sep 28 2012, 23:57
- - mzil   Notice the goal was not a nearly indistinguishable...   Sep 29 2012, 04:08
- - punkrockdude   I would like to hear the inner groove distortion t...   Sep 29 2012, 10:34
- - derty2   Recent excerpts from Steve Hoffman forums      --...   Sep 29 2012, 15:22
- - derty2   The original tapes were 'raw' copied to di...   Sep 29 2012, 17:44
- - lvqcl   QUOTE I do not understand why the engineers didn...   Sep 29 2012, 18:10
- - hlloyge   I am not into that. Sell these files, rather than ...   Sep 29 2012, 19:24
- - derty2   Your 'comment' was addressed in 2009, the ...   Sep 29 2012, 19:45
- - _if   QUOTE Having made initial test cuts, Magee pinpoin...   Sep 30 2012, 04:28
|- - Batman321   QUOTE (_if @ Sep 29 2012, 22:28) QUOTE Ha...   Sep 30 2012, 09:25
- - LithosZA   Arghh, just release an un-limited/uncompressed ver...   Sep 30 2012, 10:26
- - 2Bdecided   It's nice they aren't including the peak l...   Oct 1 2012, 10:46
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Oct 1 2012, 10:46) Oth...   Oct 2 2012, 13:54
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (cliveb @ Oct 2 2012, 13:54) QUOTE ...   Oct 2 2012, 16:37
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Oct 2 2012, 16:37) But...   Oct 3 2012, 09:20
- - derty2   To remix or not to remix classic albums - An inter...   Oct 1 2012, 20:01
- - RonaldDumsfeld   Looking forward to hearing the mono versions when ...   Oct 1 2012, 23:13
|- - _if   QUOTE (RonaldDumsfeld @ Oct 1 2012, 18:13...   Oct 2 2012, 06:37
- - greynol   Are you suggesting that MSFL doesn't apply EQ ...   Oct 2 2012, 07:13
|- - _if   I trust the new remasters weren't batch-proces...   Oct 2 2012, 08:27
- - 2Bdecided   I'm only judging from the Beetledrops website ...   Oct 2 2012, 09:27
- - mzil   Regarding EQ, since none of us have heard the mast...   Oct 2 2012, 14:54
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (mzil @ Oct 2 2012, 14:54) Regardin...   Oct 2 2012, 16:41
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Oct 2 2012, 11:41) QUO...   Oct 3 2012, 02:42
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (krabapple @ Oct 3 2012, 02:42) QUO...   Oct 5 2012, 10:00
- - greynol   The point that seems to be overlooked about MFSL i...   Oct 2 2012, 15:13
|- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 2 2012, 10:13) The p...   Oct 2 2012, 22:48
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 2 2012, 10:13) The p...   Oct 3 2012, 02:35
||- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Oct 2 2012, 21:35) I d...   Oct 3 2012, 18:52
|- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 2 2012, 10:13) The p...   Oct 3 2012, 18:32
- - greynol   ABX?!? Are we now claiming that different mas...   Oct 2 2012, 22:54
|- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 2 2012, 17:54) ABX?...   Oct 2 2012, 23:59
|- - Porcus   Are you saying that you were not trolling when you...   Oct 3 2012, 00:12
|- - mzil   QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 2 2012, 19:12) Are yo...   Oct 3 2012, 01:07
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (mzil @ Oct 3 2012, 02:07) QUOTE (P...   Oct 3 2012, 10:18
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 3 2012, 05:18) Actual...   Oct 3 2012, 19:35
|- - greynol   QUOTE (krabapple @ Oct 3 2012, 11:35) One...   Oct 3 2012, 20:56
|- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 3 2012, 15:56) QUOTE...   Oct 3 2012, 21:42
- - greynol   mzil, I'll gladly show you logs demonstrating...   Oct 3 2012, 00:20
|- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 2 2012, 19:20) mzil,...   Oct 3 2012, 04:54
- - greynol   Here you go: CODEfoo_abx 1.3.1 report foobar2000 v...   Oct 3 2012, 05:29
- - mzil   There's a huge difference in the audio level, ...   Oct 3 2012, 07:13
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (mzil @ Oct 3 2012, 08:13) There...   Oct 3 2012, 08:19
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 3 2012, 00:19) Replay...   Oct 3 2012, 10:42
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 3 2012, 11:42) QUOTE...   Oct 3 2012, 19:55
- - RonaldDumsfeld   QUOTE Looking forward to hearing the mono versions...   Oct 3 2012, 17:00
- - greynol   If you boost the bass and treble, or cut the mids,...   Oct 3 2012, 18:49
|- - Ed Seedhouse   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 3 2012, 10:49) Wheth...   Oct 4 2012, 16:32
|- - Ed Seedhouse   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 3 2012, 10:49) Wheth...   Oct 4 2012, 18:39
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Ed Seedhouse @ Oct 4 2012, 10:39) ...   Oct 4 2012, 23:20
- - mzil   ^Exactly.   Oct 3 2012, 19:42
- - greynol   Now you're being pedantic and of course there...   Oct 3 2012, 21:47
|- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 3 2012, 16:47) Were ...   Oct 3 2012, 22:17
||- - greynol   QUOTE (mzil @ Oct 3 2012, 14:17) [*Not su...   Oct 3 2012, 22:19
|- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 3 2012, 16:47) If MF...   Oct 3 2012, 23:11
- - Porcus   For further confusion, throw in the reported DSOTM...   Oct 3 2012, 21:52
|- - godrick   QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 3 2012, 21:52) For fu...   Oct 4 2012, 00:28
- - greynol   If you apply de-emphasis to the Capitol sample, re...   Oct 3 2012, 22:12
- - greynol   1) Aside attempting to address your comment about ...   Oct 3 2012, 23:15
- - greynol   If there is no topic to bump, feel free to start a...   Oct 4 2012, 00:33
- - krabapple   Do we know that MFSL's versions are typically ...   Oct 4 2012, 05:48
|- - eahm   QUOTE (krabapple @ Oct 3 2012, 21:48) Do ...   Oct 4 2012, 07:24
|- - Batman321   QUOTE (eahm @ Oct 4 2012, 01:24) QUOTE (k...   Oct 4 2012, 08:35
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Batman321 @ Oct 4 2012, 08:35) Wha...   Oct 5 2012, 10:08
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (eahm @ Oct 4 2012, 02:24) QUOTE (k...   Oct 4 2012, 20:41
- - Batman321   Please go back to the topic.   Oct 4 2012, 19:18
- - krabapple   It occurs to me that I own a number of MFSL CDs......   Oct 4 2012, 20:49
- - 2Bdecided   I just want to tell you, absolutely definitively, ...   Oct 5 2012, 10:16
|- - _if   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Oct 5 2012, 05:16) You...   Oct 5 2012, 19:47
- - derty2   Sean Magee has confirmed today that the vinyl is c...   Nov 12 2012, 20:19
|- - Batman321   QUOTE (derty2 @ Nov 12 2012, 14:19) Sean ...   Nov 12 2012, 21:12
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Batman321 @ Nov 12 2012, 20:12) I...   Nov 14 2012, 14:26
- - greynol   It could have been cut from 16/44.1 and no one wou...   Nov 12 2012, 22:15
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (derty2 @ Nov 12 2012, 20:19) Sean ...   Nov 13 2012, 12:56
- - 2Bdecided   It seems many of the copies sold in the US have pr...   Nov 16 2012, 18:15
- - Batman321   Looks like the quality control guys at Rainbo Reco...   Nov 16 2012, 21:03
- - Batman321   warped vinyl lots of clicks and pops scratches wei...   Nov 16 2012, 23:18
|- - Ed Seedhouse   QUOTE (Batman321 @ Nov 16 2012, 14:18) wa...   Nov 17 2012, 00:00
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Batman321 @ Nov 16 2012, 22:18) no...   Nov 19 2012, 12:51
- - 2Bdecided   The guy who remastered the Beatles vinyl quotes th...   Nov 20 2012, 18:59
|- - Batman321   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 20 2012, 12:59) Th...   Nov 20 2012, 20:42
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (Batman321 @ Nov 20 2012, 20:42) So...   Nov 20 2012, 22:26
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 20 2012, 13:59) Th...   Nov 21 2012, 15:09
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (krabapple @ Nov 21 2012, 14:09) is...   Nov 22 2012, 12:52
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 22 2012, 07:52) I ...   Nov 23 2012, 10:51
|- - Batman321   QUOTE (krabapple @ Nov 23 2012, 04:51) QU...   Nov 23 2012, 20:06
- - greynol   Just an FYI: That some guy is a disgruntled HA mem...   Nov 20 2012, 22:21
- - greynol   There's a reason I don't read too many dis...   Nov 21 2012, 15:33


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