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Need Clarification on TOS8
kstuart
post Sep 27 2012, 02:05
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QUOTE
8. All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims. Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings. Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.


I've read some of the linked discussion on TOS8 as well.

All of it covers objective vs subjective.

What IMHO needs clarification is the first phrase:

" All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality... "

Can a mod or admin clarify - in an official way - "put forth a statement" ?

For example, if I were to post "Joe Blow, the editor of AudiophileGuys magazine, says that the new Megabuck 9000 amplifier sounds better than any other amplifier", technically that would violate TOS8 - even though that Joe said that, is a fact that is easily substantiated by a reference to AudiophileGuys magazine web site. The statement is what someone said, not actually making a claim about audio.

Clearly, that is not the intent of TOS8. Rather it seems to me that the intent is with regards statements like "flac files always sound better than 320k MP3s" which would then need the substantiation required by TOS8.

Okay, then here is where the clarification is needed.

If I were to state in a post " In my setup, using ASIO output seems to sound better than WASAPI output. " - is that a violation of TOS8 ?

The discussion that TOS8 links to, suggests that TOS8 is designed to prevent statements of sound quality "fact" - as opposed to statements of personal observations. In other words, "ASIO always sounds better than WASAPI" is a TOS8 violation, while " In my setup, using ASIO output seems to sound better than WASAPI output " is just reporting an observation - and NOT an assertion of audio fact.

Am I correct, and is that how you would differentiate ?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by kstuart: Sep 27 2012, 02:12
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greynol
post Apr 4 2013, 16:32
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We don't hear with our eyes.

/enddiscussion


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Wyld Stallyn
post Apr 4 2013, 16:46
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QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 4 2013, 17:32) *
We don't hear with our eyes.

/enddiscussion

I'm sorry but that is not the end of the discussion. Waveforms serve as a translation of the audible part of the frequency spectrum into the visible part, but that does not negate the difference in audible frequency if two methodically correctly measured signals differ from each other on waveforms. Only where a difference is measured will a difference be plotted, unless the equipment is fatally flawed.
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 4 2013, 17:43) *
First read and understand this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_masking

...then take a quick look as this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics#Software

...then try to find a graph or measurement that indicates which elements of a complex audio signal are audible to the human ear, and which bits are not.

Hint: there is no such graph or measurement. The closest you get is with simulations of human hearing. PEAQ is an internationally standardised model of human hearing, that is trained and based upon the results of... listening tests!

Cheers,
David.

Ah yes, now I understand. A measurable difference may not be audible even if in theoretically audible dimensions because the affected frequencies may still be masked by others more prominent ones. Auditory masking was a concept I knew about (even if I understand it only roughly), but I failed to think of it. Thanks for bringing it more to my attention!

This post has been edited by Wyld Stallyn: Apr 4 2013, 16:52
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greynol
post Apr 4 2013, 18:01
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QUOTE (Wyld Stallyn @ Apr 4 2013, 08:46) *
Waveforms serve as a translation of the audible part of the frequency spectrum into the visible part

You were already told(!), differences that may be made demonstrated visually do not necessarily translate into differences that can be detected audibly.

That you may question it doesn't change the reality of the situation, and will certainly not change the rule or the way it is enforced.


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Wyld Stallyn
post Apr 4 2013, 18:54
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QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 4 2013, 19:01) *
QUOTE (Wyld Stallyn @ Apr 4 2013, 08:46) *
Waveforms serve as a translation of the audible part of the frequency spectrum into the visible part

You were already told(!), differences that may be made demonstrated visually do not necessarily translate into differences that can be detected audibly.

That you may question it doesn't change the reality of the situation, and will certainly not change the rule or the way it is enforced.

Yes. I refer you to my last response. Up to that point it has in fact not been sufficiently well laid out.
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Posts in this topic
- kstuart   Need Clarification on TOS8   Sep 27 2012, 02:05
- - pdq   My unofficial response is that even a statement of...   Sep 27 2012, 10:55
|- - greynol   QUOTE (pdq @ Sep 27 2012, 02:55) Also, I ...   Sep 27 2012, 17:16
- - Canar   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 26 2012, 18:05) In o...   Sep 27 2012, 14:58
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Canar @ Sep 27 2012, 15:58) Show u...   Sep 27 2012, 17:18
- - greynol   ...and it is done over and over again. You make a...   Sep 27 2012, 17:57
|- - kstuart   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 27 2012, 09:57) Ever...   Sep 27 2012, 19:00
||- - fuflo   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 27 2012, 21:00) So, ...   Sep 27 2012, 19:36
|||- - Porcus   QUOTE (fuflo @ Sep 27 2012, 20:36) QUOTE ...   Sep 27 2012, 19:53
||- - greynol   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 27 2012, 11:00) The ...   Sep 27 2012, 20:02
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 27 2012, 18:57) Ever...   Sep 27 2012, 19:50
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Porcus @ Sep 27 2012, 11:50) But y...   Sep 27 2012, 20:00
- - Canar   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 26 2012, 18:05) ...   Sep 27 2012, 22:52
|- - kstuart   QUOTE (Canar @ Sep 27 2012, 14:52) QUOTE ...   Sep 27 2012, 23:33
|- - greynol   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 27 2012, 15:33) User...   Sep 28 2012, 01:36
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 28 2012, 00:33) User...   Sep 28 2012, 07:46
|- - skamp   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 28 2012, 00:33) User...   Sep 28 2012, 09:56
- - [JAZ]   I think we all understand what the rule is meant t...   Sep 28 2012, 19:36
|- - Porcus   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Sep 28 2012, 20:36...   Sep 29 2012, 11:17
|- - kstuart   No matter what word you use, people divide themsel...   Nov 8 2012, 19:05
- - greynol   As far as forum policy is concerned this is nonsen...   Nov 8 2012, 19:16
- - Garf   The idea of TOS8 is to make a simplified explanati...   Nov 12 2012, 21:28
|- - kstuart   QUOTE (Garf @ Nov 12 2012, 13:28) The phi...   Nov 12 2012, 22:19
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (kstuart @ Nov 12 2012, 23:19) Huma...   Nov 12 2012, 22:59
|- - Garf   QUOTE (kstuart @ Nov 12 2012, 22:19) QUOT...   Nov 12 2012, 23:05
- - Wyld Stallyn   I would like to ask something regarding TOS8 too. ...   Apr 4 2013, 15:01
- - 2Bdecided   Some audible differences are invisible, some inaud...   Apr 4 2013, 15:25
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 4 2013, 16:25) Som...   Apr 5 2013, 09:14
- - Wyld Stallyn   My OpenOffice copy isn't able to open the prov...   Apr 4 2013, 15:46
|- - Porcus   I really don't understand what you are saying ...   Apr 4 2013, 16:02
- - Wyld Stallyn   This may seem a bit dumb, but I actually didn...   Apr 4 2013, 16:30
- - greynol   We don't hear with our eyes. /enddiscussion   Apr 4 2013, 16:32
|- - Wyld Stallyn   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 4 2013, 17:32) We do...   Apr 4 2013, 16:46
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Wyld Stallyn @ Apr 4 2013, 08:46) ...   Apr 4 2013, 18:01
|- - Wyld Stallyn   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 4 2013, 19:01) QUOTE...   Apr 4 2013, 18:54
- - 2Bdecided   First read and understand this... http://en.wikipe...   Apr 4 2013, 16:43
- - pdq   My interpretation of TOS #8 is this: If a claim i...   Apr 4 2013, 18:03
- - greynol   It has been sufficiently well laid out in countles...   Apr 4 2013, 19:03
- - Mach-X   I myself have wondered how this applies to stateme...   Apr 6 2013, 01:25
- - Mach-X   Otoh, tos8 is fairly simple. Even established fact...   Apr 6 2013, 01:32


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