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Need Clarification on TOS8
kstuart
post Sep 27 2012, 02:05
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QUOTE
8. All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims. Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings. Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.


I've read some of the linked discussion on TOS8 as well.

All of it covers objective vs subjective.

What IMHO needs clarification is the first phrase:

" All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality... "

Can a mod or admin clarify - in an official way - "put forth a statement" ?

For example, if I were to post "Joe Blow, the editor of AudiophileGuys magazine, says that the new Megabuck 9000 amplifier sounds better than any other amplifier", technically that would violate TOS8 - even though that Joe said that, is a fact that is easily substantiated by a reference to AudiophileGuys magazine web site. The statement is what someone said, not actually making a claim about audio.

Clearly, that is not the intent of TOS8. Rather it seems to me that the intent is with regards statements like "flac files always sound better than 320k MP3s" which would then need the substantiation required by TOS8.

Okay, then here is where the clarification is needed.

If I were to state in a post " In my setup, using ASIO output seems to sound better than WASAPI output. " - is that a violation of TOS8 ?

The discussion that TOS8 links to, suggests that TOS8 is designed to prevent statements of sound quality "fact" - as opposed to statements of personal observations. In other words, "ASIO always sounds better than WASAPI" is a TOS8 violation, while " In my setup, using ASIO output seems to sound better than WASAPI output " is just reporting an observation - and NOT an assertion of audio fact.

Am I correct, and is that how you would differentiate ?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by kstuart: Sep 27 2012, 02:12
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Garf
post Nov 12 2012, 21:28
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The idea of TOS8 is to make a simplified explanation of the philosophy of the forum, relevant to the scenario that actually plays out here in 99% of the cases.

The philosophy of the forum is that in order for any discussion (about audio quality, but you can see it broader) to have any use, it should refer to things that are objectively measurable (which, for audio quality, is possible by a subjective blind test!) and falsifiable[1]. i.e. it should be possible to make forward progress in the discussion and at no point it should boil down to a series of claims which can't be verified or tested.

Regarding opinions vs claims: there is no difference. It was said in another context, but I think this quote reflects my view on this: "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to what you can argue for." We can all state our opinions all day long and nothing changes. This is the kind of thing you do on Facebook. Here, we'll require you to defend your opinion, and maybe figure out who is wrong and who is right. That's progress. That's what we want to promote.

[1] This address the sentiment stated earlier that the "default" is "no difference". Claiming nobody can hear a difference is a falsifiable statement, because we can try to find someone that can prove (through ABX) he does hear a difference. If we'd take the reverse position "there is a difference", we'd have to prove there is nobody on the world that can hear a difference to falsify it. That isn't possible, so it's not a stance that allows forward progress on the discussion. Hence it's a bad hypothesis to start from.

So basically, the point of this post was to explain TOS8 is a simplification in itself that catches the common case. If someone comes up with a formulation of the above that is as easy to explain to new people as the current TOS8, I'm all for it.
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kstuart
post Nov 12 2012, 22:19
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QUOTE (Garf @ Nov 12 2012, 13:28) *
The philosophy of the forum is that in order for any discussion (about audio quality, but you can see it broader) to have any use, it should refer to things that are objectively measurable ...

The problem is that "objectively measurable" is impossible. Measurements are made by human beings.

As a broad example of what I am talking about, the original false idea that heart disease is related to total cholestorol came about because in a peer-reviewed paper in a journal, the writer had accidentally changed a positive numeric value to a negative value, and none of the editors or the peer-reviewers caught it. (Of course, since the pharma industry sold millions of dollars of placebos as a result, you have not heard much about this.)

Anyone who is actually involved in testing or measurement professionally (raises hand) knows how easy it is to get wrong results. And there is no detached "Objective" entity available to tell us when we have screwed up the measurement.

Human activities are judged by results. The results are judged by other human beings. There is no objective source of judgement.
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Garf
post Nov 12 2012, 23:05
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QUOTE (kstuart @ Nov 12 2012, 22:19) *
QUOTE (Garf @ Nov 12 2012, 13:28) *
The philosophy of the forum is that in order for any discussion (about audio quality, but you can see it broader) to have any use, it should refer to things that are objectively measurable ...

Anyone who is actually involved in testing or measurement professionally (raises hand) knows how easy it is to get wrong results. And there is no detached "Objective" entity available to tell us when we have screwed up the measurement.


It's called reproducing the experiment.

And yes, there's a bias in science to have experiments perform the "expected" outcome. Hence the importance of documenting the process fully and correctly so the measurement and experiment can be properly repeated. And not being afraid of reporting negative results.

You'll find that in most cases where multiple researchers went astray, it usually involved the above.

I don't see how you go from "it's possible to fuck up a measurement" to "objective measurement don't exist hence no point in striving towards it". You're claiming science doesn't work. Scientists occasionally cock up, but the process works for sure.
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Posts in this topic
- kstuart   Need Clarification on TOS8   Sep 27 2012, 02:05
- - pdq   My unofficial response is that even a statement of...   Sep 27 2012, 10:55
|- - greynol   QUOTE (pdq @ Sep 27 2012, 02:55) Also, I ...   Sep 27 2012, 17:16
- - Canar   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 26 2012, 18:05) In o...   Sep 27 2012, 14:58
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Canar @ Sep 27 2012, 15:58) Show u...   Sep 27 2012, 17:18
- - greynol   ...and it is done over and over again. You make a...   Sep 27 2012, 17:57
|- - kstuart   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 27 2012, 09:57) Ever...   Sep 27 2012, 19:00
||- - fuflo   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 27 2012, 21:00) So, ...   Sep 27 2012, 19:36
|||- - Porcus   QUOTE (fuflo @ Sep 27 2012, 20:36) QUOTE ...   Sep 27 2012, 19:53
||- - greynol   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 27 2012, 11:00) The ...   Sep 27 2012, 20:02
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 27 2012, 18:57) Ever...   Sep 27 2012, 19:50
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Porcus @ Sep 27 2012, 11:50) But y...   Sep 27 2012, 20:00
- - Canar   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 26 2012, 18:05) ...   Sep 27 2012, 22:52
|- - kstuart   QUOTE (Canar @ Sep 27 2012, 14:52) QUOTE ...   Sep 27 2012, 23:33
|- - greynol   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 27 2012, 15:33) User...   Sep 28 2012, 01:36
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 28 2012, 00:33) User...   Sep 28 2012, 07:46
|- - skamp   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 28 2012, 00:33) User...   Sep 28 2012, 09:56
- - [JAZ]   I think we all understand what the rule is meant t...   Sep 28 2012, 19:36
|- - Porcus   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Sep 28 2012, 20:36...   Sep 29 2012, 11:17
|- - kstuart   No matter what word you use, people divide themsel...   Nov 8 2012, 19:05
- - greynol   As far as forum policy is concerned this is nonsen...   Nov 8 2012, 19:16
- - Garf   The idea of TOS8 is to make a simplified explanati...   Nov 12 2012, 21:28
|- - kstuart   QUOTE (Garf @ Nov 12 2012, 13:28) The phi...   Nov 12 2012, 22:19
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (kstuart @ Nov 12 2012, 23:19) Huma...   Nov 12 2012, 22:59
|- - Garf   QUOTE (kstuart @ Nov 12 2012, 22:19) QUOT...   Nov 12 2012, 23:05
- - Wyld Stallyn   I would like to ask something regarding TOS8 too. ...   Apr 4 2013, 15:01
- - 2Bdecided   Some audible differences are invisible, some inaud...   Apr 4 2013, 15:25
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 4 2013, 16:25) Som...   Apr 5 2013, 09:14
- - Wyld Stallyn   My OpenOffice copy isn't able to open the prov...   Apr 4 2013, 15:46
|- - Porcus   I really don't understand what you are saying ...   Apr 4 2013, 16:02
- - Wyld Stallyn   This may seem a bit dumb, but I actually didn...   Apr 4 2013, 16:30
- - greynol   We don't hear with our eyes. /enddiscussion   Apr 4 2013, 16:32
|- - Wyld Stallyn   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 4 2013, 17:32) We do...   Apr 4 2013, 16:46
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Wyld Stallyn @ Apr 4 2013, 08:46) ...   Apr 4 2013, 18:01
|- - Wyld Stallyn   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 4 2013, 19:01) QUOTE...   Apr 4 2013, 18:54
- - 2Bdecided   First read and understand this... http://en.wikipe...   Apr 4 2013, 16:43
- - pdq   My interpretation of TOS #8 is this: If a claim i...   Apr 4 2013, 18:03
- - greynol   It has been sufficiently well laid out in countles...   Apr 4 2013, 19:03
- - Mach-X   I myself have wondered how this applies to stateme...   Apr 6 2013, 01:25
- - Mach-X   Otoh, tos8 is fairly simple. Even established fact...   Apr 6 2013, 01:32


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