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Need Clarification on TOS8
kstuart
post Sep 27 2012, 02:05
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8. All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims. Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings. Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.


I've read some of the linked discussion on TOS8 as well.

All of it covers objective vs subjective.

What IMHO needs clarification is the first phrase:

" All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality... "

Can a mod or admin clarify - in an official way - "put forth a statement" ?

For example, if I were to post "Joe Blow, the editor of AudiophileGuys magazine, says that the new Megabuck 9000 amplifier sounds better than any other amplifier", technically that would violate TOS8 - even though that Joe said that, is a fact that is easily substantiated by a reference to AudiophileGuys magazine web site. The statement is what someone said, not actually making a claim about audio.

Clearly, that is not the intent of TOS8. Rather it seems to me that the intent is with regards statements like "flac files always sound better than 320k MP3s" which would then need the substantiation required by TOS8.

Okay, then here is where the clarification is needed.

If I were to state in a post " In my setup, using ASIO output seems to sound better than WASAPI output. " - is that a violation of TOS8 ?

The discussion that TOS8 links to, suggests that TOS8 is designed to prevent statements of sound quality "fact" - as opposed to statements of personal observations. In other words, "ASIO always sounds better than WASAPI" is a TOS8 violation, while " In my setup, using ASIO output seems to sound better than WASAPI output " is just reporting an observation - and NOT an assertion of audio fact.

Am I correct, and is that how you would differentiate ?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by kstuart: Sep 27 2012, 02:12
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Canar
post Sep 27 2012, 14:58
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QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 26 2012, 18:05) *
In other words, "ASIO always sounds better than WASAPI" is a TOS8 violation, while " In my setup, using ASIO output seems to sound better than WASAPI output " is just reporting an observation - and NOT an assertion of audio fact.
This is wrong. Neither is acceptable. Furthermore, there's some degree of collective agreement on what is true around here. Talking about how different audio output modes sound different is totally disingenuous and outright bogus unless there are significant driver problems. They should sound bit-identical, audio reproduction accuracy notwithstanding.

Show up with an ABX of the difference or you're in trouble. Cite an article that makes that claim without proper methodology, and we'll tear it to shreds.


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Porcus
post Sep 27 2012, 17:18
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QUOTE (Canar @ Sep 27 2012, 15:58) *
Show up with an ABX of the difference or you're in trouble.


That's applicable if the statement claims a difference. The TOS item does not refer to statements of difference, merely to statements of subjective sound quality.

There are a lot of claims of the form that codec X with setting Y is by and large transparent, and I have yet to see moderators step in to call such statements a TOS #8 violation, although a claim to transparency certainly constitutes “a statement concerning subjective sound quality”. Sometimes a quite strong statement too.

I've always thought that the TOS item was never intended to require users to support experimental evidence for the null hypothesis – and I am ready to admit at any time that this is my rationalising it in order to make it sensible (of course, jurists do that all the time). But to readers who do not immediately pick up that concept, the wording is everything but clear. If the TOS item were rephrased to reflect (what I think is) the intention, one could at least avoid the uneducated impression that the TOS item is largely ignored except when you step on some moderators' pet view. (Edit: of course then, it could also avoid questions that for the sake of enlightenment could just as well be asked and answered, even though it would have to be done over and over again.)

This post has been edited by Porcus: Sep 27 2012, 17:20


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Posts in this topic
- kstuart   Need Clarification on TOS8   Sep 27 2012, 02:05
- - pdq   My unofficial response is that even a statement of...   Sep 27 2012, 10:55
|- - greynol   QUOTE (pdq @ Sep 27 2012, 02:55) Also, I ...   Sep 27 2012, 17:16
- - Canar   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 26 2012, 18:05) In o...   Sep 27 2012, 14:58
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Canar @ Sep 27 2012, 15:58) Show u...   Sep 27 2012, 17:18
- - greynol   ...and it is done over and over again. You make a...   Sep 27 2012, 17:57
|- - kstuart   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 27 2012, 09:57) Ever...   Sep 27 2012, 19:00
||- - fuflo   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 27 2012, 21:00) So, ...   Sep 27 2012, 19:36
|||- - Porcus   QUOTE (fuflo @ Sep 27 2012, 20:36) QUOTE ...   Sep 27 2012, 19:53
||- - greynol   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 27 2012, 11:00) The ...   Sep 27 2012, 20:02
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 27 2012, 18:57) Ever...   Sep 27 2012, 19:50
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Porcus @ Sep 27 2012, 11:50) But y...   Sep 27 2012, 20:00
- - Canar   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 26 2012, 18:05) ...   Sep 27 2012, 22:52
|- - kstuart   QUOTE (Canar @ Sep 27 2012, 14:52) QUOTE ...   Sep 27 2012, 23:33
|- - greynol   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 27 2012, 15:33) User...   Sep 28 2012, 01:36
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 28 2012, 00:33) User...   Sep 28 2012, 07:46
|- - skamp   QUOTE (kstuart @ Sep 28 2012, 00:33) User...   Sep 28 2012, 09:56
- - [JAZ]   I think we all understand what the rule is meant t...   Sep 28 2012, 19:36
|- - Porcus   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Sep 28 2012, 20:36...   Sep 29 2012, 11:17
|- - kstuart   No matter what word you use, people divide themsel...   Nov 8 2012, 19:05
- - greynol   As far as forum policy is concerned this is nonsen...   Nov 8 2012, 19:16
- - Garf   The idea of TOS8 is to make a simplified explanati...   Nov 12 2012, 21:28
|- - kstuart   QUOTE (Garf @ Nov 12 2012, 13:28) The phi...   Nov 12 2012, 22:19
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (kstuart @ Nov 12 2012, 23:19) Huma...   Nov 12 2012, 22:59
|- - Garf   QUOTE (kstuart @ Nov 12 2012, 22:19) QUOT...   Nov 12 2012, 23:05
- - Wyld Stallyn   I would like to ask something regarding TOS8 too. ...   Apr 4 2013, 15:01
- - 2Bdecided   Some audible differences are invisible, some inaud...   Apr 4 2013, 15:25
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 4 2013, 16:25) Som...   Apr 5 2013, 09:14
- - Wyld Stallyn   My OpenOffice copy isn't able to open the prov...   Apr 4 2013, 15:46
|- - Porcus   I really don't understand what you are saying ...   Apr 4 2013, 16:02
- - Wyld Stallyn   This may seem a bit dumb, but I actually didn...   Apr 4 2013, 16:30
- - greynol   We don't hear with our eyes. /enddiscussion   Apr 4 2013, 16:32
|- - Wyld Stallyn   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 4 2013, 17:32) We do...   Apr 4 2013, 16:46
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Wyld Stallyn @ Apr 4 2013, 08:46) ...   Apr 4 2013, 18:01
|- - Wyld Stallyn   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 4 2013, 19:01) QUOTE...   Apr 4 2013, 18:54
- - 2Bdecided   First read and understand this... http://en.wikipe...   Apr 4 2013, 16:43
- - pdq   My interpretation of TOS #8 is this: If a claim i...   Apr 4 2013, 18:03
- - greynol   It has been sufficiently well laid out in countles...   Apr 4 2013, 19:03
- - Mach-X   I myself have wondered how this applies to stateme...   Apr 6 2013, 01:25
- - Mach-X   Otoh, tos8 is fairly simple. Even established fact...   Apr 6 2013, 01:32


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