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Discussion of v1.1.15’s changes to handling of rating field in ID3v2, [posts #6–13 split from final release thread]
someone8
post Sep 15 2012, 14:02
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Previously, I always used a rating scheme which also incorporates one decimal place (mostly .5). But after the recent rating tag change

QUOTE (db1989 @ Sep 15 2012, 12:45) *
■ ID3v2: “rating” tags now compatible with Windows Media Player (beta 2).


, my old habit can't be realized anymore, as only the number without the decimal places is saved (to assure WMP compatibility). However, if write a "6" (or any higher number) in the rating tag with foobar, it is saved but will never be compatible with WMP. So can the developers please enable the possibility to save floating numbers again, and only write WMP compatible rating tags, if the written rating is [1 2 3 4 5]? This would help me a lot, because I wouldn't have to modify my whole music library to use a custom rating tag or switching to a [1 2 3 ... 10] (from a [1.0 1.5 2.0 2.5 ... 5]) rating.

Thanks in advance!
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roc
post Nov 6 2012, 01:53
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+1, I'm sure that would help out a lot of people who have the POPM field used by other software that is less flexible / amazing as FB2K

As a DJ / music producer, I can definitely see the benefits of using a Mac OS (a whole other discussion), but the ONLY thing keeping me to windows is FB2K. (Praise the lord of such programs!)

As I have a few days off work I am looking to future proof my setup

Current situation:
I use FB2K 1.1.13 (no revised Rating tagging in that) for music organisation and Native Instruments Traktor Pro for DJing (1 of 2 leading digital/timecode DJ software, the other being Serato [not counting Rekordbox here]). All music is in MP3 format.

Traktor uses the POPM field for it's Rating tag. The format is as follows:
If the song's rating = 5 it populates the Popularimeter (POPM) tag with => "traktor@native-instruments.de|255|0" (without the quotes)
rating = 4 => traktor@native-instruments.de|204|0
rating = 3 => traktor@native-instruments.de|153|0
rating = 2 => traktor@native-instruments.de|102|0
rating = 1 => traktor@native-instruments.de|51|0

I do all my ratings in FB2K v1.1.13, then use a MP3Tag script to export the Rating field to the POPM field of the MP3s. (Every few weeks I re-run the script, so that Traktor has my latest Rating changes)

Now when I load up my MP3s into the latest FB2K version (v1.1.16) (with the "Option to write rating as TXXX" enabled) I see multiple ratings (separated by a comma) for many of my songs.

After many hours/days of research and testing (which I see no need to detail here at this time), I have concluded that FB2K 1.1.16 looks at the usual "rating" tag, as well as the "rating wmp" tag and the "popularimeter" (POPM) tag.

I removed the "rating wmp" tag from all my mp3s to simplify matters (I created them myself previously but they are redundant now in my current setup)

The remaining 'multiple' ratings that can be seen in FB2K 1.1.16 is a combination of the Rating tag and the Traktor POPM tag.
BUT I think FB2K 1.1.16 reads the POPM tags as follows:
traktor@native-instruments.de|255|0 => rating = 5
traktor@native-instruments.de|204|0 => rating = 4
traktor@native-instruments.de|153|0 => rating = 3
traktor@native-instruments.de|102|0 => rating = 3 (not 2)
traktor@native-instruments.de|51|0 => rating = 2 (not 1)

So FB2K reads 'properly' only the ones rated 3, 4 & 5. (I understand that POPM is more of a favourites/popularity 'meter', and just because Traktor assigns the values as it does doesn't make them 'right')

Also, it seems FB2K writes to the normal Rating tag when the "Option to write rating as TXXX" is ticked (as expected), and the Rating WMP tag when it is unchecked?

I realise I could just stay at the current FB2K version indefinitely, so please do not suggest that. As:
1) would be amazing to have FB2K sync properly with Traktor 2 rating POPM field (ideal, but unlikely, scenario?)
2) more importantly, I am looking ahead here, if in the next 2-3years there comes a point where I am not able to use v1.1.13, I would rather have realised now and prepared for it whilst I have the time to look into it. (ie. might as well use my time off to begin preparation to move onto a Mac lol!)
3) don't know why and if it's coincidence or not, but my Rating field in my FB2K v1.1.13 has stopped showing me the rating in the playlist view (still can see the rating in the property dialog box view of the song). So instead of concentrating my efforts on fixing that (which I have tried somewhat already) thought it would make more sense to try and use the new version (which at least shows something in the Rating column of the playlist view!)
4) I will probably just make my own custom tag and just use that rather than sticking to an old version of FB2K

Questions:
1) Why does FB2K not read the POPM tags as the same as Traktor? ie. What does foobar consider the different rating values
2) FB2K seems to write to Rating (when the "Option to write rating as TXXX" is ticked) and Rating WMP (when the "Option to write rating as TXXX" is not ticked)... where does the Popularimeter come into all this?
3) Will FB2K ever work with the Traktor POPM tag in the future?

Sorry for the massive amount of info here, but wanted to give more rather than less. (I know how annoying it is when people ask for help but have given only very limited info!)

Many thanks
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shakey_snake
post Nov 6 2012, 04:53
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QUOTE (roc @ Nov 5 2012, 19:53) *
Questions:
1) Why does FB2K not read the POPM tags as the same as Traktor? ie. What does foobar consider the different rating values
POPM is an id3 frame that has a complex set of criteria it stores: an email address and a binary value between 0 and 255 (0xFF).

However, this is a pointlessly complex and rigid standard, especially when most people just desire to rate songs on a 1-5 "star" scale (especially as that is how the "rating" is exposed by the WMP interface). So, when you have a standard that is pointless and rigid, it is going to be utilized in a way that is driven by convention. So, fb2k attempts to follow the conventions followed by the most popular software (WMP: garbage email address, and a value that corresponds with a certain number of stars), so that the tag works with the most people.

It appears your chosen software uses a different convention (aka a different number from 0-255 to represent different numbers of stars).

QUOTE (roc @ Nov 5 2012, 19:53) *
FB2K seems to write to Rating (when the "Option to write rating as TXXX" is ticked) and Rating WMP (when the "Option to write rating as TXXX" is not ticked)... where does the Popularimeter come into all this?
Field names (as shown in fb2k's properties dialog) map to different id3 frames (See outdated chart here). It is another layer of abstraction, necessary by the fact that fb2k deals with lots of different formats with various tagging schemes.

So for mp3 you have the following layers, from most abstract down to the most "bare metal":
CODE
Field name                  (e.g. RATING)
          |
          V
Tag Type Standard               (e.g. id3v2)
          |
          V
Tag Type Standard revision               (e.g. 2.3)
          |
          V
id3 Frame                       (e.g. POPM)
          |
          V
Convention                       (e.g. 255=5 stars)



QUOTE (roc @ Nov 5 2012, 19:53) *
3) Will FB2K ever work with the Traktor POPM tag in the future?
You would need to convince the author of Traktor to follow the more popular convention. It is unlikely fb2k would abandon compatibility with WMP in order to be compatible with less popular software.

This post has been edited by shakey_snake: Nov 6 2012, 04:58


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Posts in this topic
- someone8   Discussion of v1.1.15’s changes to handling of rating field in ID3v2   Sep 15 2012, 14:02
- - q-stankovic   Why don't you use just another tag? Instead...   Sep 15 2012, 16:38
- - someone8   As I already said, this would be an option but qui...   Sep 15 2012, 17:39
- - MDMA   It's not an effort to apply it to the whole li...   Sep 15 2012, 17:42
- - someone8   OK, thanks. I will do that. But still, strange beh...   Sep 15 2012, 18:24
- - shakey_snake   QUOTE Did anyone stop to consider the possibility ...   Sep 15 2012, 19:46
- - BenB   I don't think foobar writing a POPM frame belo...   Sep 15 2012, 21:01
- - neothe0ne   I think a nice compromise would be having an advan...   Sep 15 2012, 22:31
|- - shakey_snake   QUOTE (BenB @ Sep 15 2012, 16:01) I don...   Sep 15 2012, 23:20
|- - BenB   QUOTE (shakey_snake @ Sep 15 2012, 17:20)...   Sep 16 2012, 00:59
|- - shakey_snake   QUOTE (BenB @ Sep 15 2012, 19:59) I'm...   Sep 17 2012, 13:47
- - q-stankovic   If the aim is just to avoid the same tag in two di...   Sep 16 2012, 00:52
- - EpicForever   QUOTE (q-stankovic @ Sep 16 2012, 00...   Sep 16 2012, 21:00
- - db1989   QUOTE (BenB @ Sep 15 2012, 19:32) QUOTE (...   Sep 17 2012, 12:32
- - Defrance   I'd like to explain the issue this implementat...   Sep 25 2012, 07:04
- - Emerelle   +1 for the suggestion to make TXXX rating tags an ...   Sep 27 2012, 11:11
|- - shakey_snake   QUOTE (Emerelle @ Sep 27 2012, 06:11) +1 ...   Sep 27 2012, 13:50
- - Emerelle   Exactly, not wmp. Any other software I tried so fa...   Sep 27 2012, 15:25
- - Defrance   Other than a few bytes of space per file, what is ...   Sep 27 2012, 20:34
|- - trelain   QUOTE (Defrance @ Sep 27 2012, 14:34) Oth...   Oct 8 2012, 04:33
- - trelain   Couple of corrections after more research. On a ...   Oct 8 2012, 20:35
|- - shakey_snake   QUOTE (trelain @ Oct 8 2012, 15:35) Coupl...   Oct 8 2012, 22:47
- - Sandrine   I am not sure I understand all the implications of...   Oct 19 2012, 14:26
- - BenB   foobar 1.1.16 beta 1 has been released and the fol...   Oct 20 2012, 18:20
|- - trelain   QUOTE (BenB @ Oct 20 2012, 12:20) foobar ...   Oct 22 2012, 23:02
- - Sandrine   The question remains - which to choose? ... see po...   Oct 20 2012, 20:59
- - BenB   It's a matter of preference/necessity. If you...   Oct 20 2012, 22:35
- - roc   +1, I'm sure that would help out a lot of peop...   Nov 6 2012, 01:53
|- - shakey_snake   QUOTE (roc @ Nov 5 2012, 19:53) Questions...   Nov 6 2012, 04:53
- - trelain   You are seeing a different interpretive "spre...   Nov 6 2012, 13:23
- - roc   Thanks for the additional info shakey_snake, trela...   Nov 6 2012, 16:17


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