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TAK codec (Any news, seems silent for some time)
johnsonlam
post Sep 13 2012, 05:06
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Hi Guys,

Thomas seems going silent for a period of time, any news or other developers working on TAK related GUI or something like "TAK drop"?

Also want to ask, any media player can DIRECT decode the HDCD signal inside TAK yet?

Thanks.



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TBeck
post Sep 21 2012, 20:59
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TAK Developer


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Yes, it became a bit silent. Sometimes i am missing those early days, when i released many test versions and was impatiently waiting for results to see, if the latest optimizations worked well. This was exciting for me and for many testers. Yeah, this was some kind of entertainment!

BTW: I am reading the hydrogen posts on a daily base, but i usually don't have time to answer immideately. Well, there are also a lot of unanswered mails too... Sorry.

As a result of the extensive tuning before the first stable release, there was not much opportunity left to tune the codec further. At some point it's getting more and more difficult to optimize. New processors with new instructions sets can provide opportunities to improve the speed, but the (in some post) mentioned new AMD cpus can't help TAK. I always had possible hardware implementations in mind, and this usually means fast integer implementations, to my knowledge the new AMD cpus only provide improvements for floating point optimizations. But when Intel releaseses their new cpus with AVX-256-Bit integer instructions, i will jump on the train...

So, what was left to do:

V 2.0 (which required a format change) provided relatively small improvements, but the effort to achieve them was quite large. And it would be even more (time wise) expensive to achieve more improvements. It's getting harder and harder. Another point: I am still looking for opportunities to improve the compression ratio, but all i have tried had a very significant effect on the encoding speed (10 to 50 times slower). That's not a good thing, if you want your codec to be associated with speed. Notice: I am still trying a lot, but because nothing worked very well, i don't post about it.

Conclusion: Currently little chance to improve the CD-Audio-compression performance.

Therefore i worked on other things:

V 2.1 initially included a specialized codec for LossyWav-compressed files. But there was very little interest (understandable, if you want to use such files to replace conventionally lossy compressed ones, you usually need hardware playback capabilities, which TAK is lacking).

V2.2 brought the probably most efficient (if you also take speed into account) compression for multi-channel-audio. But that's also only relevant for a small group of users. Possibly more for the video guys, but they would need an open source version of TAK integrated into their video tools.

Currently i have very liitle time i could invest into TAK. To do so, the task has to be attractive. Well, if i get a new exciting idea...

But i still love TAK (developers are allowed to say something like this about their work, i hope) and i definitely want it to have a great future. I am thinking about strategies to spread it. I have some plans, but i don't want to talk about them, this because of bad experiences in the past, when i was to enthusiastic and made promises i couldn't keep. You will hear about it, when i'ts done. And i hope, it will get a bit better than the latest Duke Nukem game... smile.gif

Thomas
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Porcus
post Sep 23 2012, 15:02
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QUOTE (TBeck @ Sep 21 2012, 21:59) *
Another point: I am still looking for opportunities to improve the compression ratio, but all i have tried had a very significant effect on the encoding speed (10 to 50 times slower). That's not a good thing, if you want your codec to be associated with speed. Notice: I am still trying a lot, but because nothing worked very well, i don't post about it.


If you still after these years see the fun in finding room for improvement, then ... did you use much noise music in development? I checked my least-FLACable album and it turned out to be even less TAK-able: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=800823 . Of course it is only one album, and that's not much of a statistic. Anyway, some figures for the least compressible track (#3, now playing):

1307 for WavPack extra high (not holding my breath)
1395 for FLAC -8
1399 for FLAC -0
1400 for WavPack fast
1402 for WavPack normal (!)
100.04 % for TAK -p4m, reported by Tak.exe (2.2.0) -- indeed, file sizes are 58 178 123 bytes for .wav and 58 198 718 for .tak.
100.96 % for TAK -p0


Cheers from YALAuwivibusoC #666
(Yet Another Lossless Audio user who is very impressed but uses some other Codec)

This post has been edited by Porcus: Sep 23 2012, 15:03


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Posts in this topic
- johnsonlam   TAK codec (Any news, seems silent for some time)   Sep 13 2012, 05:06
- - Destroid   I also have not heard much lately. Is there anythi...   Sep 13 2012, 07:00
|- - johnsonlam   QUOTE (Destroid @ Sep 13 2012, 14:00) I a...   Sep 13 2012, 11:50
- - skamp   Try foobar2000 with the TAK decoder component and ...   Sep 13 2012, 09:05
|- - johnsonlam   QUOTE (skamp @ Sep 13 2012, 16:05) Try fo...   Sep 13 2012, 11:33
|- - skamp   QUOTE (johnsonlam @ Sep 13 2012, 12:33) I...   Sep 29 2012, 15:53
- - Dario   Cross-platform TAK binaries would be like a dream ...   Sep 13 2012, 13:20
|- - johnsonlam   QUOTE (Dario @ Sep 13 2012, 20:20) Cross-...   Sep 14 2012, 03:41
|- - Destroid   I think it is safe to say Thomas is still around a...   Sep 16 2012, 11:23
|- - johnsonlam   QUOTE (Destroid @ Sep 16 2012, 18:23) I t...   Sep 16 2012, 16:06
- - hlloyge   For me, choice is obvious - open source, with mult...   Sep 16 2012, 16:15
|- - johnsonlam   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Sep 16 2012, 23:15) For ...   Sep 18 2012, 12:39
- - hlloyge   Well, yeah, TAK has it's strengths, but I live...   Sep 18 2012, 13:57
|- - Destroid   Pardon my saying, but I never understood the attit...   Sep 19 2012, 11:14
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Destroid @ Sep 19 2012, 06:14) Par...   Sep 23 2012, 23:07
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (saratoga @ Sep 23 2012, 17:07) QUO...   Sep 24 2012, 02:25
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (mudlord @ Sep 23 2012, 21:25) WRON...   Sep 24 2012, 02:44
- - hlloyge   You misunderstood what I've been saying. I wor...   Sep 19 2012, 17:34
|- - quackalist   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Sep 19 2012, 09:34) ...A...   Sep 23 2012, 19:23
- - Destroid   My comment regarded the licensing issue having alr...   Sep 19 2012, 18:27
- - TBeck   Yes, it became a bit silent. Sometimes i am missin...   Sep 21 2012, 20:59
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (TBeck @ Sep 21 2012, 21:59) Anothe...   Sep 23 2012, 15:02
- - Destroid   All lossless formats are going nowhere when consid...   Sep 23 2012, 22:34
- - Destroid   Sidenote: even though I said that lossless on mobi...   Sep 25 2012, 02:21
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (Destroid @ Sep 24 2012, 23:21) Sid...   Sep 25 2012, 14:11
- - Anakunda   Yep please make the takdecolib component opensourc...   Sep 25 2012, 05:31
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Anakunda @ Sep 25 2012, 06:31) los...   Sep 25 2012, 12:02
- - greynol   Please give it a rest.   Sep 25 2012, 05:35
- - D404   News! http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-deve...   Oct 2 2012, 15:55
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (D404 @ Oct 2 2012, 10:55) News...   Oct 2 2012, 17:19
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (D404 @ Oct 2 2012, 18:55) http://f...   Oct 2 2012, 17:21
|- - _mē_   Very interesting. TAK may not be lost for me after...   Oct 4 2012, 21:00
- - Nick.C   Hopefully, quite a lot if it ends up on Rockbox in...   Oct 2 2012, 18:43
- - Dario   Hold on a sec. I'm pretty familiar with revers...   Oct 3 2012, 00:56
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Dario @ Oct 2 2012, 19:56) Hold on...   Oct 3 2012, 02:19
- - TBeck   Well, mixed feelings here... First reaction was a...   Oct 3 2012, 02:20
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (TBeck @ Oct 3 2012, 03:20) I haven...   Oct 3 2012, 08:11
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 3 2012, 09:11) If you...   Oct 3 2012, 11:00
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ Oct 3 2012, 12:00) ...   Oct 3 2012, 18:39
- - saratoga   You should post on the ffmpeg mailing list. They...   Oct 3 2012, 03:14
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (saratoga @ Oct 3 2012, 04:14) You ...   Oct 3 2012, 03:51
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (TBeck @ Oct 2 2012, 22:51) QUOTE (...   Oct 3 2012, 15:57
- - smok3   QUOTE Well, possibly less freedom for me to implem...   Oct 3 2012, 08:53
- - TBeck   QUOTE (smok3 @ Oct 3 2012, 09:53) QUOTE W...   Oct 4 2012, 21:33
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (TBeck @ Oct 4 2012, 16:33) Current...   Oct 4 2012, 22:34
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (TBeck @ Oct 4 2012, 15:33) Current...   Oct 4 2012, 22:50
|- - mzso   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jun 18 2013, 10:31) I thin...   Jun 23 2013, 22:18
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (mzso @ Jun 23 2013, 23:18) Not sur...   Jun 25 2013, 11:14
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jun 25 2013, 06:14) QUOTE ...   Jun 25 2013, 19:16
- - Soap   TBeck, something to think about: (Note I'm at...   Oct 4 2012, 23:10
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Soap @ Oct 4 2012, 18:10) IIRC (do...   Oct 5 2012, 00:53
|- - Soap   QUOTE (saratoga @ Oct 4 2012, 19:53) FWIW...   Oct 5 2012, 00:55
- - mudlord   now all they needs to do is RE a TAK encoder. Su...   Oct 5 2012, 01:04
- - jido   The code of the decoder looks tidy. I can't wa...   Oct 5 2012, 17:52
- - skamp   Nice! A few quirks though: decoding fails when...   Oct 5 2012, 18:17
- - mycroft   First two issues should be resolved in latest vers...   Oct 6 2012, 01:33
|- - skamp   QUOTE (mycroft @ Oct 6 2012, 02:33) First...   Oct 11 2012, 10:37
|- - bandpass   QUOTE (skamp @ Oct 11 2012, 10:37) What a...   Oct 11 2012, 11:01
- - Zergen   New version of ffmpeg (1.1) officially supports TA...   Jan 7 2013, 22:57
- - skamp   There's one major problem though: as far as I ...   Jan 8 2013, 09:18
- - mycroft   That is just untrue.   Jan 8 2013, 13:29
- - skamp   Decoding a 24 bit TAK file with ffmpeg git: CODE ...   Jan 8 2013, 14:08
- - mycroft   Yes and that is normal, default codec for wav is 1...   Jan 8 2013, 15:37
- - skamp   I see. One shouldn't need to manually select t...   Jan 8 2013, 15:44
- - DOS386   QUOTE http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2.....   Feb 4 2013, 15:00
- - DOS386   QUOTE Did a short test: encode with TAK 1.1.1, dec...   Feb 4 2013, 16:17
- - skamp   Thomas, just FYI, I can't link to your officia...   Jun 26 2013, 13:06
- - TBeck   QUOTE (saratoga @ Jun 25 2013, 20:16) Peo...   Jun 27 2013, 11:05
- - boombaard   Thomas, I've recently found a few classical re...   Jun 27 2013, 20:32
- - TBeck   Thank you for providing the test file. QUOTE (boo...   Jun 30 2013, 21:47


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