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If the output is digital does the player make any difference to the so
db579
post Jul 31 2012, 00:21
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I'm wondering whether if you had two media playing pieces of hardware outputting digital music would the quality of the device make any difference? For example say you had a cheap-to-mid range android phone or mp3 player playing a flac file and outputting over HDMI to a receiver, and a higher spec digital media player like say the Olive 06HD playing the same flac file output over HDMI to a receiver would you hear/should there theoretically even be any difference in audio quality?

Thanks
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xnor
post Aug 2 2012, 18:50
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As I said, isochronous (adaptive) transfer can work perfectly fine.
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Aug 2 2012, 18:55
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QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 13:50) *
As I said, isochronous (adaptive) transfer can work perfectly fine.


I would like to see a real-world reliable test that shows it working any way but fine.

All we seem to have is these anecdotes.
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xnor
post Aug 2 2012, 21:21
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 2 2012, 19:55) *
All we seem to have is these anecdotes.


So you think a lot of people, including me (on my old notebook anyway), imagine audio glitches like VERY ANNOYING clicks or drop-outs with USB DACs? Screenshots of DPC latency measurements that clearly show that the hardware isn't able to stream audio glitch-free are anecdotes too?

Just because you haven't seen it yourself doesn't mean it's not real.

This post has been edited by xnor: Aug 2 2012, 21:25
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saratoga
post Aug 2 2012, 21:28
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QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:21) *
QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 2 2012, 19:55) *
All we seem to have is these anecdotes.


So you think a lot of people, including me (on my old notebook anyway), imagine audio glitches like VERY ANNOYING clicks or drop-outs with USB DACs?


That does not follow. I don't think anyone here doubts that audio drop outs can happen with buggy hardware. I've certainly seen data corruption from USB drivers for instance. Doesn't mean I think the MSC spec is broken.

Thats the problem with anecdotal reports about glitches. You don't know what caused it. Driver bug? Chipset errata? Problem with the USB spec? What conclusion can you safely draw when you don't know what happened?
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xnor
post Aug 2 2012, 21:38
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QUOTE (saratoga @ Aug 2 2012, 22:28) *
What conclusion can you safely draw when you don't know what happened?


If a user that reported the problem reduces the DPC latency and the problems disappear then I draw the conclusion that most likely a too high DPC latency was the problem. Unfortunately, not all users can fix their hardware configuration / drivers so they end up returning the device and replacing it with an S/PDIF or Firewire or PCIe or async. USB interface which seem to make less problems. HDMI, as I said, I don't know.

On my old laptop, for example, disabling WLAN reduces the DPC latency considerably and gets rid of nasty spikes that caused drop-outs. Still not convinced?

This post has been edited by xnor: Aug 2 2012, 21:39
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saratoga
post Aug 2 2012, 21:44
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QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:38) *
On my old laptop, for example, disabling WLAN reduces the DPC latency considerably and gets rid of nasty spikes that caused drop-outs. Still not convinced?


I'm absolutely convinced that you have broken hardware. Beyond that, what else am I supposed to take away from the anecdote?
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xnor
post Aug 2 2012, 21:57
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QUOTE (saratoga @ Aug 2 2012, 22:44) *
I'm absolutely convinced that you have broken hardware. Beyond that, what else am I supposed to take away from the anecdote?

Well that's just (being) stupid but I'm okay with that.

This post has been edited by xnor: Aug 2 2012, 21:59
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saratoga
post Aug 5 2012, 00:55
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QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:57) *
QUOTE (saratoga @ Aug 2 2012, 22:44) *
I'm absolutely convinced that you have broken hardware. Beyond that, what else am I supposed to take away from the anecdote?

Well that's just (being) stupid but I'm okay with that.


What a tactful way to avoid answering the question.

QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:57) *
I don't know about the firmware but I agree with the other points you make. I'm not advocating to buy an async interface either. As you've said it's probably cheaper to get a better laptop or PC that will run flawlessly with the interface.


No, its cheaper just figure out what broken device you have that is blocking inside an ISR (!!!) and throw it out a window.
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phofman
post Aug 5 2012, 21:03
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QUOTE (saratoga @ Aug 5 2012, 01:55) *
No, its cheaper just figure out what broken device you have that is blocking inside an ISR (!!!) and throw it out a window.


Actually, it would be a crappy driver to be thrown out. The device itself is innocent smile.gif
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[JAZ]
post Aug 5 2012, 21:40
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QUOTE (phofman @ Aug 5 2012, 22:03) *
Actually, it would be a crappy driver to be thrown out. The device itself is innocent smile.gif


That is not always the case smile.gif
Remember the Creative Soundblaster Live! , it had a design that was using the PCI bus in excess and caused problems with some chipsets. ( I've quickly searched for a link about it and found this: http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/37211-...opping-crakling . Guess i could find a better source with a better searching)
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xnor
post Aug 5 2012, 23:39
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QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Aug 5 2012, 22:40) *
That is not always the case smile.gif

Yeah but if you can fix all the glitches by reducing the DPC latency then the sound card is not broken, regardless if somebody is absolutely convinced of that. As absurd as it sounds, DPC latency can be (temporarily) reduced even by just restarting/disabling certain Windows services.

saratoga, you don't know what laptop I have, what sound card I use or anything else yet you're absolutely convinced my hardware is broken. I'm sorry if I offended you but imho it's exactly what I said it is. Same goes for your "throw it out a window" statement.

This post has been edited by xnor: Aug 5 2012, 23:50
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Posts in this topic
- db579   If the output is digital does the player make any difference to the so   Jul 31 2012, 00:21
- - xnor   I'd say that if you stay in the digital domain...   Jul 31 2012, 01:05
- - db579   Wouldn't jitter occur in the DAC process if at...   Jul 31 2012, 01:13
- - xnor   I think with HDMI it's entirely in the 'ha...   Jul 31 2012, 01:18
- - db579   Same thing for digital optical?   Jul 31 2012, 01:50
- - hlloyge   I think it's the same with all modern devices ...   Jul 31 2012, 07:33
- - probedb   Plus from reading around here, if you can actually...   Jul 31 2012, 08:15
- - db579   So with that in mind if you wanted portable audiop...   Jul 31 2012, 13:56
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (db579 @ Jul 31 2012, 14:56) if you...   Jul 31 2012, 14:09
|- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (db579 @ Jul 31 2012, 14:56) So wit...   Jul 31 2012, 14:14
|- - skamp   QUOTE (db579 @ Jul 31 2012, 14:56) So wit...   Jul 31 2012, 14:21
|- - greynol   QUOTE (db579 @ Jul 31 2012, 05:56) a good...   Jul 31 2012, 15:30
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (db579 @ Jul 31 2012, 08:56) So wit...   Aug 2 2012, 18:35
- - db579   I'm asking more out of theoretical interest th...   Jul 31 2012, 15:36
- - xnor   I think that portable players can easily sound bet...   Jul 31 2012, 15:39
- - greynol   The answer is yes, it is possible to get the same ...   Jul 31 2012, 15:43
|- - xnor   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 31 2012, 16:43) To d...   Jul 31 2012, 16:54
- - db579   Interesting responses and not what I expected, tha...   Jul 31 2012, 15:48
- - skamp   The O2/ODAC is a portable DAC + headphone amp that...   Jul 31 2012, 16:46
- - db579   Thanks guys, really appreciate the detailed and he...   Jul 31 2012, 18:01
- - DVDdoug   QUOTE xnor - He seems to suggest that the response...   Jul 31 2012, 19:12
|- - xnor   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jul 31 2012, 20:12) It d...   Jul 31 2012, 20:07
||- - andy o   QUOTE (xnor @ Jul 31 2012, 12:07) I don...   Aug 1 2012, 15:46
||- - xnor   For example the Yamaha RX-V3900 was measured to ha...   Aug 1 2012, 16:37
||- - andy o   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 1 2012, 08:37) For exam...   Aug 1 2012, 20:34
|- - mzil   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jul 31 2012, 14:12) ...D...   Jul 31 2012, 20:41
- - greynol   Identical numbers are fine and dandy, but they don...   Jul 31 2012, 20:08
- - db579   QUOTE (xnor @ Jul 31 2012, 20:07) Very fe...   Jul 31 2012, 21:14
- - yourlord   All things being equal, the delivered data should ...   Jul 31 2012, 22:33
|- - xnor   QUOTE (yourlord @ Jul 31 2012, 23:33) [.....   Jul 31 2012, 23:21
||- - Roseval   QUOTE (xnor @ Jul 31 2012, 23:21) Unlike ...   Aug 1 2012, 18:13
||- - xnor   QUOTE (Roseval @ Aug 1 2012, 19:13) As an...   Aug 1 2012, 18:34
||- - greynol   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 1 2012, 10:34) I guess ...   Aug 1 2012, 18:40
|- - mzil   The signal the HDMI output sends gets transfered p...   Aug 1 2012, 00:16
|- - yourlord   QUOTE (mzil @ Jul 31 2012, 19:16) The sig...   Aug 1 2012, 03:33
- - mzil   ^Do you have any evidence that level is audible to...   Aug 1 2012, 17:07
- - xnor   Nope and that's why I didn't make that cla...   Aug 1 2012, 17:17
|- - pdq   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 1 2012, 12:17) Nope and...   Aug 1 2012, 19:51
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 1 2012, 12:17) Nope and...   Aug 2 2012, 18:50
- - mzil   If you are allowed to turn up the volume and liste...   Aug 1 2012, 17:31
- - greynol   Do DACs matter? Perhaps, but if you can't dem...   Aug 1 2012, 17:59
- - Roseval   QUOTE If frames need to arrive every ms but do not...   Aug 1 2012, 18:50
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Roseval @ Aug 1 2012, 13:50) QUOTE...   Aug 2 2012, 18:41
- - greynol   How about the word horrible? EDIT: Just saw your ...   Aug 1 2012, 20:38
- - xnor   As I said, isochronous (adaptive) transfer can wor...   Aug 2 2012, 18:50
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 13:50) As I sai...   Aug 2 2012, 18:55
|- - xnor   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 2 2012, 19...   Aug 2 2012, 21:21
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:21) QUOTE (A...   Aug 2 2012, 21:28
|- - xnor   QUOTE (saratoga @ Aug 2 2012, 22:28) What...   Aug 2 2012, 21:38
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:38) On my ol...   Aug 2 2012, 21:44
||- - xnor   QUOTE (saratoga @ Aug 2 2012, 22:44) I...   Aug 2 2012, 21:57
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:57) QUOTE (s...   Aug 5 2012, 00:55
||- - phofman   QUOTE (saratoga @ Aug 5 2012, 01:55) No, ...   Aug 5 2012, 21:03
||- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (phofman @ Aug 5 2012, 22:03) Actua...   Aug 5 2012, 21:40
||- - xnor   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Aug 5 2012, 22:40)...   Aug 5 2012, 23:39
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:38) QUOTE (s...   Aug 3 2012, 13:15
|- - xnor   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 3 2012, 14...   Aug 3 2012, 15:01
|- - probedb   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 15:01) Right, i...   Aug 3 2012, 16:25
||- - xnor   QUOTE (probedb @ Aug 3 2012, 17:25) You m...   Aug 3 2012, 16:55
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 11:55) QUOTE (p...   Aug 3 2012, 16:59
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 10:01) QUOTE (A...   Aug 3 2012, 16:55
||- - xnor   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 3 2012, 17...   Aug 3 2012, 17:19
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 12:19) QUOTE (A...   Aug 3 2012, 22:26
||- - xnor   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 3 2012, 23...   Aug 3 2012, 22:38
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 17:38) QUOTE (A...   Aug 4 2012, 23:43
||- - xnor   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 5 2012, 00...   Aug 5 2012, 00:36
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 4 2012, 19:36) QUOTE (A...   Aug 6 2012, 08:14
|- - yourlord   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 10:01) All I...   Aug 3 2012, 17:17
|- - xnor   QUOTE (yourlord @ Aug 3 2012, 18:17) That...   Aug 3 2012, 17:28
- - greynol   ...and poor subject/verb agreement, lol.   Aug 2 2012, 18:58
- - Roseval   A test by Jim Lesurf: http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/L...   Aug 2 2012, 19:05
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Roseval @ Aug 2 2012, 14:05) A tes...   Aug 2 2012, 19:26
- - [JAZ]   @ xnor: That example does not apply. I do have hi...   Aug 2 2012, 22:13
|- - xnor   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Aug 2 2012, 23:13)...   Aug 2 2012, 22:35
- - Roseval   It is very simple. USB Audio is a isochronous stre...   Aug 4 2012, 09:43
|- - db579   Thanks for that Roseval really clear helpful expla...   Aug 4 2012, 16:29
- - Roseval   Thanks There are a couple of exiting developments...   Aug 4 2012, 21:22
|- - db579   @roseval So am I right in thinking this would be i...   Aug 5 2012, 15:02
|- - Roseval   The USB DACs being UAC1 or UAC2 compliant (use the...   Aug 5 2012, 17:14
- - phofman   If you raise playback buffer/playback latency, wil...   Aug 6 2012, 17:43
- - [JAZ]   phofman: Yes and no. With windows Vista and upwa...   Aug 6 2012, 19:00
|- - phofman   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Aug 6 2012, 20:00)...   Aug 6 2012, 20:19
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (phofman @ Aug 6 2012, 21:19) DPC i...   Aug 6 2012, 22:08
|- - phofman   QUOTE Yes, that says the maximum has been 19 milli...   Aug 7 2012, 11:46
- - Roseval   Maybe this link is of use: http://www.rme-audio.de...   Aug 6 2012, 22:43


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