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If the output is digital does the player make any difference to the so
db579
post Jul 31 2012, 00:21
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I'm wondering whether if you had two media playing pieces of hardware outputting digital music would the quality of the device make any difference? For example say you had a cheap-to-mid range android phone or mp3 player playing a flac file and outputting over HDMI to a receiver, and a higher spec digital media player like say the Olive 06HD playing the same flac file output over HDMI to a receiver would you hear/should there theoretically even be any difference in audio quality?

Thanks
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DVDdoug
post Jul 31 2012, 19:12
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QUOTE
xnor - He seems to suggest that the response of the DACs he tests is better when given an optical digital input than when given a USB digital input. This thread had given me the impression that shouldn't be the case?
It shouldn't make a difference unless different digital data is coming-in the different inputs, or unless "something else" is different. If the "numbers" are the same, it shouldn't matter how the numbers get into the DAC.

Digital audio data is numbers... This message is coming to you as digital data... It doesn't matter if the data is sent over wires, or fiber-optics, or the distance the message travels, or whatever... As long as the data doesn't get corrupted somehow, you are reading exactly the letters I typed. If there are any "typos", it's probably not a problem with the digital transmission... biggrin.gif Digital data storage & transmission is super-reliable. If we can send data around the world without corruption, you can safely send data across the room to your DAC...

Yes, you might run into a case where the driver is sending different data (such as a different sample rate) over the different digital interfaces.
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xnor
post Jul 31 2012, 20:07
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QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jul 31 2012, 20:12) *
It doesn't matter if the data is sent over wires, or fiber-optics, or the distance the message travels, or whatever... As long as the data doesn't get corrupted somehow, you are reading exactly the letters I typed. If there are any "typos", it's probably not a problem with the digital transmission... biggrin.gif Digital data storage & transmission is super-reliable. If we can send data around the world without corruption, you can safely send data across the room to your DAC...


But it does matter. Very few USB devices are isolated whereas S/PDIF typically is. Actually, many devices are also powered by the USB port so that noise in the computer's PSU also affects the device. Yeah, if 'properly implemented' such devices should reject that noise and you shouldn't hear any difference.

Another problem with USB DACs is DPC latency. I've heard many people report problems with 'streaming' audio over USB, like random glitches due to latency spikes. Again, if the drivers for you computer's hardware are 'properly implemented' you shouldn't have any problems.

The default transfer mode for streaming audio over USB is isochronous, which means that for example every millisecond your computer has to send audio data. Data loss is possible. One DPC latency spike and you might experience a glitch because the data won't arrive in time.

I don't know if the same is true for HDMI. Old receivers had horrible jitter problems but I guess this problem was fixed one or two years ago.

This post has been edited by xnor: Jul 31 2012, 20:11
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Posts in this topic
- db579   If the output is digital does the player make any difference to the so   Jul 31 2012, 00:21
- - xnor   I'd say that if you stay in the digital domain...   Jul 31 2012, 01:05
- - db579   Wouldn't jitter occur in the DAC process if at...   Jul 31 2012, 01:13
- - xnor   I think with HDMI it's entirely in the 'ha...   Jul 31 2012, 01:18
- - db579   Same thing for digital optical?   Jul 31 2012, 01:50
- - hlloyge   I think it's the same with all modern devices ...   Jul 31 2012, 07:33
- - probedb   Plus from reading around here, if you can actually...   Jul 31 2012, 08:15
- - db579   So with that in mind if you wanted portable audiop...   Jul 31 2012, 13:56
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (db579 @ Jul 31 2012, 14:56) if you...   Jul 31 2012, 14:09
|- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (db579 @ Jul 31 2012, 14:56) So wit...   Jul 31 2012, 14:14
|- - skamp   QUOTE (db579 @ Jul 31 2012, 14:56) So wit...   Jul 31 2012, 14:21
|- - greynol   QUOTE (db579 @ Jul 31 2012, 05:56) a good...   Jul 31 2012, 15:30
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (db579 @ Jul 31 2012, 08:56) So wit...   Aug 2 2012, 18:35
- - db579   I'm asking more out of theoretical interest th...   Jul 31 2012, 15:36
- - xnor   I think that portable players can easily sound bet...   Jul 31 2012, 15:39
- - greynol   The answer is yes, it is possible to get the same ...   Jul 31 2012, 15:43
|- - xnor   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 31 2012, 16:43) To d...   Jul 31 2012, 16:54
- - db579   Interesting responses and not what I expected, tha...   Jul 31 2012, 15:48
- - skamp   The O2/ODAC is a portable DAC + headphone amp that...   Jul 31 2012, 16:46
- - db579   Thanks guys, really appreciate the detailed and he...   Jul 31 2012, 18:01
- - DVDdoug   QUOTE xnor - He seems to suggest that the response...   Jul 31 2012, 19:12
|- - xnor   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jul 31 2012, 20:12) It d...   Jul 31 2012, 20:07
||- - andy o   QUOTE (xnor @ Jul 31 2012, 12:07) I don...   Aug 1 2012, 15:46
||- - xnor   For example the Yamaha RX-V3900 was measured to ha...   Aug 1 2012, 16:37
||- - andy o   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 1 2012, 08:37) For exam...   Aug 1 2012, 20:34
|- - mzil   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jul 31 2012, 14:12) ...D...   Jul 31 2012, 20:41
- - greynol   Identical numbers are fine and dandy, but they don...   Jul 31 2012, 20:08
- - db579   QUOTE (xnor @ Jul 31 2012, 20:07) Very fe...   Jul 31 2012, 21:14
- - yourlord   All things being equal, the delivered data should ...   Jul 31 2012, 22:33
|- - xnor   QUOTE (yourlord @ Jul 31 2012, 23:33) [.....   Jul 31 2012, 23:21
||- - Roseval   QUOTE (xnor @ Jul 31 2012, 23:21) Unlike ...   Aug 1 2012, 18:13
||- - xnor   QUOTE (Roseval @ Aug 1 2012, 19:13) As an...   Aug 1 2012, 18:34
||- - greynol   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 1 2012, 10:34) I guess ...   Aug 1 2012, 18:40
|- - mzil   The signal the HDMI output sends gets transfered p...   Aug 1 2012, 00:16
|- - yourlord   QUOTE (mzil @ Jul 31 2012, 19:16) The sig...   Aug 1 2012, 03:33
- - mzil   ^Do you have any evidence that level is audible to...   Aug 1 2012, 17:07
- - xnor   Nope and that's why I didn't make that cla...   Aug 1 2012, 17:17
|- - pdq   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 1 2012, 12:17) Nope and...   Aug 1 2012, 19:51
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 1 2012, 12:17) Nope and...   Aug 2 2012, 18:50
- - mzil   If you are allowed to turn up the volume and liste...   Aug 1 2012, 17:31
- - greynol   Do DACs matter? Perhaps, but if you can't dem...   Aug 1 2012, 17:59
- - Roseval   QUOTE If frames need to arrive every ms but do not...   Aug 1 2012, 18:50
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Roseval @ Aug 1 2012, 13:50) QUOTE...   Aug 2 2012, 18:41
- - greynol   How about the word horrible? EDIT: Just saw your ...   Aug 1 2012, 20:38
- - xnor   As I said, isochronous (adaptive) transfer can wor...   Aug 2 2012, 18:50
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 13:50) As I sai...   Aug 2 2012, 18:55
|- - xnor   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 2 2012, 19...   Aug 2 2012, 21:21
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:21) QUOTE (A...   Aug 2 2012, 21:28
|- - xnor   QUOTE (saratoga @ Aug 2 2012, 22:28) What...   Aug 2 2012, 21:38
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:38) On my ol...   Aug 2 2012, 21:44
||- - xnor   QUOTE (saratoga @ Aug 2 2012, 22:44) I...   Aug 2 2012, 21:57
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:57) QUOTE (s...   Aug 5 2012, 00:55
||- - phofman   QUOTE (saratoga @ Aug 5 2012, 01:55) No, ...   Aug 5 2012, 21:03
||- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (phofman @ Aug 5 2012, 22:03) Actua...   Aug 5 2012, 21:40
||- - xnor   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Aug 5 2012, 22:40)...   Aug 5 2012, 23:39
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 2 2012, 16:38) QUOTE (s...   Aug 3 2012, 13:15
|- - xnor   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 3 2012, 14...   Aug 3 2012, 15:01
|- - probedb   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 15:01) Right, i...   Aug 3 2012, 16:25
||- - xnor   QUOTE (probedb @ Aug 3 2012, 17:25) You m...   Aug 3 2012, 16:55
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 11:55) QUOTE (p...   Aug 3 2012, 16:59
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 10:01) QUOTE (A...   Aug 3 2012, 16:55
||- - xnor   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 3 2012, 17...   Aug 3 2012, 17:19
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 12:19) QUOTE (A...   Aug 3 2012, 22:26
||- - xnor   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 3 2012, 23...   Aug 3 2012, 22:38
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 17:38) QUOTE (A...   Aug 4 2012, 23:43
||- - xnor   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 5 2012, 00...   Aug 5 2012, 00:36
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 4 2012, 19:36) QUOTE (A...   Aug 6 2012, 08:14
|- - yourlord   QUOTE (xnor @ Aug 3 2012, 10:01) All I...   Aug 3 2012, 17:17
|- - xnor   QUOTE (yourlord @ Aug 3 2012, 18:17) That...   Aug 3 2012, 17:28
- - greynol   ...and poor subject/verb agreement, lol.   Aug 2 2012, 18:58
- - Roseval   A test by Jim Lesurf: http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/L...   Aug 2 2012, 19:05
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Roseval @ Aug 2 2012, 14:05) A tes...   Aug 2 2012, 19:26
- - [JAZ]   @ xnor: That example does not apply. I do have hi...   Aug 2 2012, 22:13
|- - xnor   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Aug 2 2012, 23:13)...   Aug 2 2012, 22:35
- - Roseval   It is very simple. USB Audio is a isochronous stre...   Aug 4 2012, 09:43
|- - db579   Thanks for that Roseval really clear helpful expla...   Aug 4 2012, 16:29
- - Roseval   Thanks There are a couple of exiting developments...   Aug 4 2012, 21:22
|- - db579   @roseval So am I right in thinking this would be i...   Aug 5 2012, 15:02
|- - Roseval   The USB DACs being UAC1 or UAC2 compliant (use the...   Aug 5 2012, 17:14
- - phofman   If you raise playback buffer/playback latency, wil...   Aug 6 2012, 17:43
- - [JAZ]   phofman: Yes and no. With windows Vista and upwa...   Aug 6 2012, 19:00
|- - phofman   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Aug 6 2012, 20:00)...   Aug 6 2012, 20:19
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (phofman @ Aug 6 2012, 21:19) DPC i...   Aug 6 2012, 22:08
|- - phofman   QUOTE Yes, that says the maximum has been 19 milli...   Aug 7 2012, 11:46
- - Roseval   Maybe this link is of use: http://www.rme-audio.de...   Aug 6 2012, 22:43


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