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Why’s FLAC ‘the’ lossless codec? Is it future-proof(able)? Comparisons, [TOS #6: was “Future proof lossless audio/codec” in General Audio]
eahm
post Jun 23 2012, 18:03
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I am trying to understand why is FLAC standardizing in the lossless world? Reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of...chnical_details isn't True Audio more future proof? All these channels and huge range, isn't it the "best" option for the next "100 years"?

If one day everyone will start using FLAC, will there be a way to expand the number of channels available? For expample the "new new" 12.1 Surround System or whatever they will come up with.

Just some thoughts, don't want to get anyone upset, I use FLAC and I love it.

Thanks.

This post has been edited by eahm: Jun 23 2012, 18:03


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TBeck
post Jun 24 2012, 19:19
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QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 24 2012, 19:29) *
http://www.synthetic-soul.co.uk/comparison...sion&Desc=0

The highest compression:
TAK p4m - 1290.33 MiB
FLAC -8 -Ax2 - 1328.08 MiB

1328.08/1290.33 = 1.029...
aprrox. 3% of filesize reduction

Well, TAK doesn't fare that well with this particular test corpus...

TAK will achieve the biggest advantage if the files are highly dynamic and if it can make use of higher predictor orders of it's filters. Both doesnt't apply for the files of this comparison. While the quite old version used in this test could use up to 256 predictors, the files rarely benefited from more than 32.

This comparison rather shows the lower bound of TAK's possible advantage.

The official FLAC Comparison contains more files where TAK can use it's stronger filters:

Tak 1.0.3b (insane max): 50.60%
FLAC 1.2.1 (-8): 53.36%

This is quite close to the results of my own music collection. Which surely isn't representative.

But it possibly illustrates, that the results of Synthetic Soul's comparison hardly define the upper bound of TAK's possible advantage.

QUOTE (greynol @ Jun 24 2012, 19:23) *
IIRC, TAK has continued to sacrifice compression strength for speed since 2008. Perhaps individual collections might see improvements greater than 3%, but on average I highly doubt it.

Well, it's a bit more difficult. Newer versions don't use more than 160 predictors (vs. 256 or more in earlier versions). This way they will loose some compression for those files, where TAK's advantage was the biggest. In exchange average compression improved for those files, where TAK's advantage was small. Overall the average compression has improved for my test sets.

QUOTE (Porcus @ Jun 24 2012, 19:52) *
QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 24 2012, 19:21) *
Those are old results (2006)

The last comparison (2008)
http://www.synthetic-soul.co.uk/comparison...sion&Desc=0


That's a different test corpus than the one I linked to, which is Josef Pohm's study (result hosted by Synthetic Soul).

I don't think Josef Pohm's comparison should be taken into account. It contains many files from lossy sources what leads to some very specific results.

This post has been edited by TBeck: Jun 24 2012, 19:20
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Porcus
post Jun 24 2012, 19:54
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QUOTE (TBeck @ Jun 24 2012, 20:19) *
many files from lossy sources


Now that's a good argument.




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Posts in this topic
- eahm   Why’s FLAC ‘the’ lossless codec? Is it future-proof(able)? Comparisons   Jun 23 2012, 18:03
- - saratoga   If people wanted more channels they'd just upd...   Jun 23 2012, 19:04
- - Debby747   I use and prefer WavPack for its features. The re...   Jun 23 2012, 19:26
- - lvqcl   Why care about future? FLAC is lossless and DRM-fr...   Jun 23 2012, 19:51
- - felix26591   I don't know about the channels, but flac is i...   Jun 23 2012, 20:39
|- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (felix26591 @ Jun 23 2012, 21:39) I...   Jun 23 2012, 20:43
|- - 2012   QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Jun 23 2012, 20:43) QUO...   Jun 23 2012, 21:55
- - eahm   QUOTE (Debby747 @ Jun 23 2012, 11:26) I u...   Jun 23 2012, 20:48
|- - skamp   QUOTE (eahm @ Jun 23 2012, 21:48) In my o...   Jun 23 2012, 21:07
||- - IgorC   QUOTE (skamp @ Jun 23 2012, 17:07) Techni...   Jun 23 2012, 23:22
||- - skamp   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 24 2012, 00:22) Is 3%...   Jun 24 2012, 08:53
||- - Porcus   @ Greynol: you don't seem to get the point. I ...   Jun 24 2012, 10:57
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jun 24 2012, 02:57) @ Gre...   Jun 24 2012, 17:28
||- - Dario   QUOTE (skamp @ Jun 23 2012, 22:07) Techni...   Jun 24 2012, 16:36
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (Dario @ Jun 24 2012, 08:36) The co...   Jun 24 2012, 17:31
|||- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Jun 24 2012, 18:31) QUOT...   Jun 24 2012, 18:04
||- - skamp   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 24 2012, 00:22) Is 3%...   Jun 25 2012, 09:31
||- - skamp   QUOTE (skamp @ Jun 25 2012, 10:31) Well, ...   Jun 25 2012, 11:46
|- - db1989   QUOTE (eahm @ Jun 23 2012, 20:48) QUOTE (...   Jun 23 2012, 21:28
- - lvqcl   IMO a codec that supports 4GHz samplerate is not b...   Jun 23 2012, 21:08
- - Porcus   If I were dictator and could order specifications ...   Jun 23 2012, 21:50
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jun 23 2012, 21:50) First...   Jun 23 2012, 22:26
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jun 23 2012, 13:50) (AFAI...   Jun 23 2012, 22:49
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Jun 23 2012, 23:49) QUOT...   Jun 23 2012, 23:28
|- - bryant   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jun 23 2012, 12:50) I hav...   Jun 24 2012, 22:47
|- - Porcus   @ Bryant: Thanks for enlightening. And well ma...   Jun 25 2012, 01:01
- - greynol   MAC at it's weakest setting compresses better ...   Jun 23 2012, 23:49
- - yourlord   FLAC was early on the scene. Performance is good e...   Jun 24 2012, 01:01
- - Takla   Some other factors which imo made/make for widespr...   Jun 24 2012, 01:13
- - eahm   I am not talking about speed, compression, hardwar...   Jun 24 2012, 01:54
- - Takla   That's fine but most people, even music lovers...   Jun 24 2012, 02:52
- - dumdidum   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jun 23 2012, 22:50) First...   Jun 24 2012, 16:35
- - IgorC   Those are old results (2006) The last comparison ...   Jun 24 2012, 18:21
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 24 2012, 19:21) Those ...   Jun 24 2012, 18:52
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jun 24 2012, 14:52) That...   Jun 24 2012, 18:57
- - greynol   Thanks. I see 6% there, not 8% though. Re: Old r...   Jun 24 2012, 18:23
- - IgorC   http://www.synthetic-soul.co.uk/comparison...sion...   Jun 24 2012, 18:29
- - greynol   That doesn't change the fact that much has cha...   Jun 24 2012, 18:54
- - Destroid   I'm late to the discussion so I am starting wi...   Jun 24 2012, 19:01
|- - Porcus   @ Destroid: a few good points, although I don...   Jun 24 2012, 20:06
- - TBeck   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 24 2012, 19:29) http:/...   Jun 24 2012, 19:19
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jun 24 2012, 15:19) But it...   Jun 24 2012, 19:53
||- - greynol   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 24 2012, 11:53) FLAC/T...   Jun 24 2012, 20:03
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jun 24 2012, 20:19) many f...   Jun 24 2012, 19:54
- - greynol   Personally I only care how comparisons fare agains...   Jun 24 2012, 19:51
- - Dario   Well, I don’t know what kind of albums you g...   Jun 24 2012, 20:21
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (Dario @ Jun 24 2012, 16:21) Well, ...   Jun 24 2012, 20:25
||- - Dario   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 24 2012, 21:25) QUOTE ...   Jun 24 2012, 20:36
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Dario @ Jun 24 2012, 21:21) Well, ...   Jun 24 2012, 21:25
||- - db1989   QUOTE (Dario @ Jun 24 2012, 20:21) I list...   Jun 25 2012, 06:53
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (Dario @ Jun 24 2012, 16:21) I list...   Jun 24 2012, 22:23
- - Destroid   @Porcus Ah, is true. The average user sometimes is...   Jun 24 2012, 20:36
- - IgorC   I have encoded two sets of samples from two last p...   Jun 24 2012, 21:49
- - TBeck   QUOTE (greynol @ Jun 24 2012, 20:51) Pers...   Jun 24 2012, 23:31
- - Dario   Here’s a 30-second sample of the album I was talki...   Jun 25 2012, 11:39
- - lvqcl   Apparent lowpass at 13...14 kHz and other signs of...   Jun 25 2012, 11:45
|- - Dario   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Jun 25 2012, 12:45) Appare...   Jun 25 2012, 12:00
|- - Porcus   I am not surprised that a demo from a one-man-band...   Jun 25 2012, 12:24
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jun 25 2012, 12:24) (That...   Jun 25 2012, 12:36
- - Porcus   The Vàli upload has a peak of only 0.82, and is fr...   Jun 25 2012, 11:52
- - lvqcl   Half a year ago I took 7 albums from my music coll...   Jun 25 2012, 13:19
|- - JJZolx   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Jun 25 2012, 06:19) Half a...   Jun 25 2012, 16:55
- - smok3   as far as longevity goes, i'd use whatever app...   Jun 25 2012, 13:26
- - TBeck   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jun 25 2012, 13:24) Earli...   Jun 25 2012, 13:59
|- - stephan_g   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jun 25 2012, 14:59) This i...   Jun 25 2012, 16:10
|- - benski   QUOTE (stephan_g @ Jun 25 2012, 11:10) Ho...   Jun 25 2012, 16:43
- - pdq   I doubt that any lossless encoder would do well wi...   Jun 25 2012, 16:38
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (pdq @ Jun 25 2012, 17:38) I doubt ...   Jun 25 2012, 17:31
- - db1989   Does Josh ever still, or have any intention to eve...   Jun 25 2012, 16:49
- - eahm   QUOTE (stephan_g @ Jun 25 2012, 08:10) Ho...   Jun 25 2012, 17:13
|- - benski   QUOTE (eahm @ Jun 25 2012, 12:13) QUOTE (...   Jun 25 2012, 17:39
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (eahm @ Jun 25 2012, 13:13) Going b...   Jun 25 2012, 18:32
- - db1989   Yes, quality has nothing to do with it. eahm seems...   Jun 25 2012, 18:41
|- - skamp   QUOTE (db1989 @ Jun 25 2012, 19:41) numer...   Jun 25 2012, 18:50
- - eahm   QUOTE (db1989 @ Jun 25 2012, 10:41) Yes, ...   Jun 25 2012, 18:47
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (eahm @ Jun 25 2012, 14:47) it...   Jun 25 2012, 18:59
- - lvqcl   TTA is more future-proof than FLAC, Itanium is mor...   Jun 25 2012, 19:14
- - eahm   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 25 2012, 10:59) QUOTE ...   Jun 25 2012, 19:15
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (eahm @ Jun 25 2012, 14:15) QUOTE (...   Jun 25 2012, 19:35
|- - JJZolx   QUOTE (saratoga @ Jun 25 2012, 12:35) Hop...   Jun 25 2012, 19:43
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (JJZolx @ Jun 25 2012, 22:43) It wo...   Jun 25 2012, 19:50
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (JJZolx @ Jun 25 2012, 14:43) QUOTE...   Jun 25 2012, 19:58
- - IgorC   It might be the case that the next step will be no...   Jun 25 2012, 20:00
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 25 2012, 21:00) It mig...   Jun 25 2012, 20:06
|- - benski   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jun 25 2012, 15:06) QUOTE...   Jun 25 2012, 20:14
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (benski @ Jun 25 2012, 21:14) QUOTE...   Jun 25 2012, 20:41
- - eahm   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Jun 25 2012, 11:14) TTA is...   Jun 25 2012, 20:23
- - hlloyge   To return to the original question, I think EAC ha...   Jun 25 2012, 22:41
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Jun 25 2012, 23:41) To r...   Jun 25 2012, 23:23
- - greynol   Nah, EAC has had (and still has) internal support ...   Jun 25 2012, 23:20
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (greynol @ Jun 25 2012, 18:20) I am...   Jun 25 2012, 23:42
- - lvqcl   From 2009 ripping/encoding general poll:   Jun 26 2012, 00:14
- - krafty   I think FLAC is popular because it was on the inte...   Jun 26 2012, 00:34
|- - greynol   QUOTE (krafty @ Jun 25 2012, 16:34) I thi...   Jun 26 2012, 04:08
- - Destroid   Which I guess brings the question of, "How ea...   Jun 26 2012, 01:18
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Destroid @ Jun 25 2012, 20:18) Whi...   Jun 26 2012, 01:36
- - onkl   FLAC has a nice sounding name. I believe one of th...   Jun 26 2012, 04:32
- - Zarggg   One could argue that "WMA" and "AAC...   Jun 27 2012, 07:39
|- - bandpass   Onkl's point was that the names are nicer soun...   Jun 27 2012, 08:36
- - Porcus   So, what's in a name? yalike, Offer my4ay? a...   Jun 27 2012, 08:39
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