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32-bit capable DACs, Split from: "WASAPI plug-in version 3.0 beta" (94907)
SoNic67
post May 26 2012, 00:54
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I don't know why people obsess about 32 bit "support" when their device manufacturer clearly states that that format is not supported. The DAC chips included on Xonar soundcards are regular 24 bit chips...
IMO, 32 bit is a worthless waste of space, all the '32 bit capable' DAC chips existent today have actual resolution less than 24 bit. Their catalog data is equal or even less than the top-of-the-line 24 bit DAC.
It's just shamless marketing and amazingly, enough people bite the bait.
The new beta plug-in (ver 2) works fine on E-MU 1820 w/ Win7 x64 and foobar ver 1.1.12 beta 6.

This post has been edited by SoNic67: May 26 2012, 01:04
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naturfreak
post May 26 2012, 23:11
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I'm not talking about the level auf acoustic noise in the studio or atmosphere, Igor. I'm talking about the noise level in electrical parts, wires, circuits.
The difference between -130 dBm and -40 dBm is 90 dB, because the in the calculation of a difference of levels the reference level of 1 mW will be discarded.
So the limitation of S/N is in the electrical domain, not in the possible difference in air pressure.
You can shift the level of loudness, yes, but in the electrical domain S/N will stay the same.
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IgorC
post May 26 2012, 23:31
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QUOTE (naturfreak @ May 26 2012, 19:11) *
The difference between -130 dBm and -40 dBm is 90 dB, because the in the calculation of a difference of levels the reference level of 1 mW will be discarded.
So the limitation of S/N is in the electrical domain, not in the possible difference in air pressure.
You can shift the level of loudness, yes, but in the electrical domain S/N will stay the same.

Yes,S/N will remain the same. It's true.

But there is no ADC with such low noise -130 dBm (-160dB). -130 dB maybe. -130 dBm - science fiction.

This post has been edited by IgorC: May 26 2012, 23:31
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post May 30 2012, 14:23
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QUOTE (IgorC @ May 26 2012, 18:31) *
QUOTE (naturfreak @ May 26 2012, 19:11) *
The difference between -130 dBm and -40 dBm is 90 dB, because the in the calculation of a difference of levels the reference level of 1 mW will be discarded.
So the limitation of S/N is in the electrical domain, not in the possible difference in air pressure.
You can shift the level of loudness, yes, but in the electrical domain S/N will stay the same.

Yes,S/N will remain the same. It's true.

But there is no ADC with such low noise -130 dBm (-160dB). -130 dB maybe. -130 dBm - science fiction.


Take a DAC with -130 dB noise referenced some higher level than 0 dBm, add a properly designed resistive divider with maybe an op amp buffer, and viola, -130 dBm noise levels.

I believe that there are now commercial DACs with -130 dB FS noise - ESS Sabre DACs.

There are several other DACs that come close Probably very little but money keeps you from connecting a bunch of them in parallel in such away that the noise drops -3 dB every time you double the number of DACs connected in parallel.
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knutinh
post Jun 1 2012, 13:36
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 30 2012, 15:23) *
There are several other DACs that come close Probably very little but money keeps you from connecting a bunch of them in parallel in such away that the noise drops -3 dB every time you double the number of DACs connected in parallel.

I was under the impression that this kind of statement makes assumptions about the DAC errors that is not totally true. I.e. you cannot achieve any (large) increase in "signal to error level" by doubling the number of DAC chips a (large) number of times. They will have some signal-dependant non-linearity, clock pulse bleed-through or whatever that will add constructively, and at some point these errors will become the significant source of error (that does not improve by increasing the amount of DACs).

I don't know about using totally different designs (how many fundamentally different high-quality DAC chips are available?), or liquid Nitrogen cooling?

Of course, going from e.g. 128 to 256 audio ADC/DAC chips is mostly an academic exercise anyways. If the true gain is 1dB less error rather than the expected 3dB, very few of us will ever notice (due to the low levels in the first place, and the low probability that anyone finds it practical to use such a setup)

-k

This post has been edited by knutinh: Jun 1 2012, 13:39
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Posts in this topic
- SoNic67   32-bit capable DACs   May 26 2012, 00:54
- - Mr.Duck   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ May 26 2012, 00:54) IMO,...   May 26 2012, 13:05
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (Mr.Duck @ May 26 2012, 16:05) Twis...   May 26 2012, 13:24
- - Mr.Duck   Maybe someone wants 32bit output to their DAC. It...   May 26 2012, 13:51
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ May 26 2012, 14:36) Foob...   May 26 2012, 19:48
- - phofman   They are obsessed because they want to be obsessed...   May 26 2012, 14:58
- - SoNic67   QUOTE (phofman @ May 26 2012, 09:58) 32bi...   May 26 2012, 19:23
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ May 26 2012, 15:23) For ...   May 26 2012, 20:03
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (IgorC @ May 26 2012, 15:03) QUOTE ...   May 26 2012, 20:55
|||- - IgorC   QUOTE (saratoga @ May 26 2012, 16:55) THD...   May 26 2012, 21:52
|||- - saratoga   QUOTE (IgorC @ May 26 2012, 16:52) Untill...   May 26 2012, 21:58
||- - SoNic67   QUOTE (IgorC @ May 26 2012, 15:03) QUOTE ...   May 26 2012, 23:44
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ May 26 2012, 18:44) DR, ...   May 30 2012, 14:29
||- - SoNic67   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 30 2012, 09...   Jun 1 2012, 01:50
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ May 31 2012, 20:50) QUOT...   Jun 1 2012, 02:14
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (saratoga @ May 31 2012, 21:14) QUO...   Jun 1 2012, 12:13
|- - Mr.Duck   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ May 26 2012, 19:23) For ...   May 26 2012, 21:06
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Mr.Duck @ May 26 2012, 16:06) QUOT...   May 26 2012, 21:54
|- - Mr.Duck   QUOTE (saratoga @ May 26 2012, 21:54) No,...   May 26 2012, 22:12
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Mr.Duck @ May 26 2012, 17:12) how ...   May 26 2012, 22:26
- - Jackal29a   I'm quite surprised by some people's react...   May 26 2012, 19:31
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Jackal29a @ May 26 2012, 19:31) I...   May 28 2012, 14:21
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Jackal29a @ May 26 2012, 19:31) I...   May 28 2012, 19:10
|- - Canar   QUOTE (db1989 @ May 28 2012, 11:10) (Disr...   May 28 2012, 19:19
|- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (Canar @ May 28 2012, 20:19) I foun...   May 28 2012, 21:52
- - SoNic67   Foobar in my opinion does the right thing telling ...   May 26 2012, 19:36
- - SoNic67   What is really representing the 32 bit support imp...   May 26 2012, 19:55
- - SoNic67   I said that the driver is the one that "lies...   May 26 2012, 20:02
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ May 26 2012, 15:02) I sa...   May 26 2012, 20:48
- - Jackal29a   The Musiland driver doesn't lie, the USB recei...   May 26 2012, 20:34
- - naturfreak   As far as I know there is a upper physical limit o...   May 26 2012, 22:01
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (naturfreak @ May 26 2012, 18:01) A...   May 26 2012, 22:12
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (naturfreak @ May 26 2012, 17:01) A...   May 26 2012, 22:13
- - naturfreak   It ist even worse in the case microphones are invo...   May 26 2012, 22:26
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (naturfreak @ May 26 2012, 18:26) I...   May 26 2012, 22:46
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (IgorC @ May 26 2012, 22:46) The no...   May 28 2012, 14:25
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 28 2012, 10:25) FW...   May 28 2012, 18:14
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (IgorC @ May 28 2012, 18:14) The me...   May 29 2012, 09:35
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 28 2012, 10:25) bu...   May 30 2012, 01:34
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (IgorC @ May 30 2012, 01:34) Show m...   May 31 2012, 10:24
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 31 2012, 06:24) Qu...   May 31 2012, 10:59
- - naturfreak   I'm not talking about the level auf acoustic n...   May 26 2012, 23:11
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (naturfreak @ May 26 2012, 19:11) T...   May 26 2012, 23:31
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (IgorC @ May 26 2012, 18:31) QUOTE ...   May 30 2012, 14:23
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 30 2012, 15...   Jun 1 2012, 13:36
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (knutinh @ Jun 1 2012, 08:36) QUOTE...   Jun 1 2012, 13:52
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jun 1 2012, 14...   Jun 6 2012, 21:18
- - naturfreak   QUOTE (IgorC @ May 26 2012, 23:31) But th...   May 27 2012, 00:18
- - SoNic67   As for ADC reality: In my E-MU 1820m I have one of...   May 27 2012, 03:11
- - Roseval   I wonder if the “32 bit DAC” has anything to do wi...   May 28 2012, 17:45
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Roseval @ May 28 2012, 12:45) Audi...   May 28 2012, 19:02
- - Rotareneg   But I needed a DAC that could accurately play back...   May 29 2012, 03:23
|- - Canar   QUOTE (Rotareneg @ May 28 2012, 19:23) Bu...   May 29 2012, 16:28
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Rotareneg @ May 28 2012, 22:23) Bu...   May 30 2012, 14:17
- - greynol   For me it didn't matter. I had the volume tur...   May 29 2012, 18:37
- - SoNic67   Paralelling is done especially on passive I/V conv...   Jun 3 2012, 19:20
- - IgorC   Those are nice and probably real specifications. ...   Jun 3 2012, 19:50
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 3 2012, 14:50) The thi...   Jun 3 2012, 22:11
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (saratoga @ Jun 3 2012, 17:11) QUOT...   Jun 4 2012, 13:21
- - SoNic67   I can hear very clear sounds at -60dB (running vol...   Jun 5 2012, 01:09
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ Jun 4 2012, 20:09) I can...   Jun 5 2012, 01:22
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ Jun 4 2012, 21:09) Now.....   Jun 5 2012, 03:52
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 4 2012, 22:52) THD of ...   Jun 5 2012, 13:06
||- - SoNic67   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jun 4 2012, 22:52) QUOTE (...   Jun 6 2012, 01:11
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ Jun 5 2012, 20:11) QUOTE...   Jun 6 2012, 02:39
|||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (saratoga @ Jun 5 2012, 21:39) QUOT...   Jun 6 2012, 14:10
||- - IgorC   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ Jun 5 2012, 21:11) You d...   Jun 6 2012, 21:38
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ Jun 4 2012, 20:09) I can...   Jun 5 2012, 13:00
- - SoNic67   Sooo... In conclusion, we need 32 bit audio?   Jun 7 2012, 00:20
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ Jun 6 2012, 19:20) Sooo....   Jun 7 2012, 12:48
- - stephan_g   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jun 5 2012, 13...   Jun 7 2012, 00:46
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (stephan_g @ Jun 6 2012, 19:46) QUO...   Jun 7 2012, 12:39
|- - stephan_g   The real elephant in the room is acoustics, no dou...   Jun 8 2012, 17:29
- - nevermind   QUOTE (stephan_g @ Jun 7 2012, 01:46) I w...   Jun 7 2012, 01:56
- - pdq   This is getting pretty far off from the original t...   Jun 8 2012, 17:58
- - SoNic67   Original topic was "Do we need 32 bit DAC...   Jun 10 2012, 18:33


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