IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

studio monitors and quality of home speakers
Bartholomew MacG...
post Apr 27 2012, 16:52
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 21
Joined: 9-February 12
Member No.: 97028



Has there ever been a documented case of a recording sounding worse on quality home speakers because the studio monitors used to make the recording where of lower quality?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
RonaldDumsfeld
post May 2 2012, 15:24
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 336
Joined: 12-June 09
Member No.: 70617



Thanks to Ethan for going to the trouble to post the stats for popular monitors. very interesting.

So it seems that studio monitors in general have a tendency to have a small dip at just those frequencies that the human ear is most sensitive too. A bit like the old 'loudness control' we used to have on hi-fi amplifiers. I'm surprised to learn this. It is contrary to my own (untutored) expectations. Hi Fi buffs tend to dismiss genuine monitors for home listening because they sound 'fatiguing' and sharp. Also lacking bass.

So it would be interesting to have similar stats for popular brands of hi-fi speakers. The view here seems to be that they would have a flatter response curve but I'm not at all sure they would. I'd expect (with no real evidence I must admit) hi fi brands to have an even deeper mid/high dip and a slight boost at either end.

To turn the OP's question on it's head I have plenty of examples of monitors sounding worse than hi-fi. Going from 8Ts speakers Mourdant Short Pageant 2, lumpy bass, smooth mids, 9Ts speakers TDL RTL 3, shrill tops, smooth lows) to 0Ts monitors, ADAM AX. I initially found the change challenging. Many old recordings I had previously found perfectly acceptable (e.g. old less than pristine vinyl, live tape recordings etc) became painful to listen too, thin and fuzzy.

p.s. I'm aware I've expressed some opinions here not supported by facts as per HA TOS. I'm hoping the nature of the discussion allows this but if not then please feel free to delete this post and accept an apolgy.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
honestguv
post May 2 2012, 16:33
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 257
Joined: 10-August 07
Member No.: 46091



QUOTE (RonaldDumsfeld @ May 2 2012, 15:24) *
So it seems that studio monitors in general have a tendency to have a small dip at just those frequencies that the human ear is most sensitive too. A bit like the old 'loudness control' we used to have on hi-fi amplifiers. I'm surprised to learn this. It is contrary to my own (untutored) expectations.

Yes it is interesting but I would suggest a bit of caution about drawing general conclusions from a particular set of measurements without their supporting discussion. It is straightforward for the major monitor manufacturers to make speakers with reasonably flat on axis responses and most of them both claim that they do and produce on axis measurements in support of the claim.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Thasp
post May 12 2012, 05:51
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 33
Joined: 9-January 04
Member No.: 11070



QUOTE (honestguv @ May 2 2012, 08:33) *
QUOTE (RonaldDumsfeld @ May 2 2012, 15:24) *
So it seems that studio monitors in general have a tendency to have a small dip at just those frequencies that the human ear is most sensitive too. A bit like the old 'loudness control' we used to have on hi-fi amplifiers. I'm surprised to learn this. It is contrary to my own (untutored) expectations.

Yes it is interesting but I would suggest a bit of caution about drawing general conclusions from a particular set of measurements without their supporting discussion. It is straightforward for the major monitor manufacturers to make speakers with reasonably flat on axis responses and most of them both claim that they do and produce on axis measurements in support of the claim.


Try any of those speakers and compare them to something of quality intended for the home environment like Thiel or Vandersteen and you'll hear for yourself. Now it is all about making something cheap that will impress people at Guitarcenter who are newcomers to recording. There is a very thin line between professional recording and "professional out of my basement" recording nowadays. It makes sense to engineer products to people who WANT a monitor that will hide the flaws in their amateur recording. The midrange is the hardest part to get right - so monitors that are easygoing in the midrange will make more amateur mixes & recordings sound tolerable.

Another purpose for those dips - to manufacture monitors that are "client pleasers" - Genelec 1031a are historic studio CLIENT speakers. Very few people actually mix on them, and very few engineers actually play finished products for the label execs on the NS10s. Every tool has its purpose. Do you want to play your finished product to the people paying for it through speakers that reveal every flaw, or speakers that will hide every flaw? Avatar had the big brother version of the Tannoy 800A... they were used once in over a decade, on some Foxy Brown session. That was it!! The 1031 and Urei 813 were only ever used to deafen the record label execs walking on the session to "see how things were going", then back to the NS10s or the engineer's monitors of choice for the real work.

Just because a company claims they are making an accurate product and markets it as a "studio" or "professional" product does not mean it is so! Often, the most accurate reproduction equipment is NOT made for the professional world, and the more a company spends time ADVERTISING how flat their product is, the less time they spend in the lab making it so!

Let's talk about so called flat results! Often those results of measurements are SMOOTHED to make a very BUMPY frequency response look flat. The degree of smoothing depends on the manufacturer and who is doing the measurements. A 5 dB null at 1 Khz and a 5 dB peak at 2 KHz can easily be made to look flat through smoothing and averaging out the measurement.

Lastly, room EQ and DSP is awful poison. Most studios with Big Red Lansing 604e speakers found them going unused. They were always afflicted with intense room EQ. Nearfields gained popularity as it allowed freelance engineers to get around the awful room tuning used on the control room's main speakers.

I forget if this were in the 60s, 70s, or 80s. Somewhere along the line, people found out that our brain can actually hear the room and subtract it from the equation. Even though we HEAR the room, our brain subtracts it from what we are actually trying to process. By trying to EQ out the room, you are compensating for something your brain is already compensating for. This becomes aurally very confusing, and is only useful for the lowest of frequencies where our brain has trouble telling the room from the original sound anyway. If you have true life measurements of a speaker - say, you measure them outside in a field and get a set of results, and attempt to EQ out the peaks, this can work. Measuring speakers in a room and EQing them to be flat in that room however, this will result in a nightmare.

I understand people being skeptical of one person's claims. On HA, I am not sure of Ethan's reputation. In the professional recording community(and basement recording community as well!), Ethan is well renowned as an expert in his craft whose findings are more often than not based on proper experiments and real science, not untested hypothesis.

P.S.

On measuring NS10s. If someone can find me a set they are measuring where the left and the right measure even within 20% of each other, I'll trade you my 3A signatures for the pair. Really! Good luck. I recall Rich Costey using NS10s four years ago in bewilderment of why the left side of his mix sounded so F'd up. The tweeter measured 10 dB different than the other. We swap out the NS10, same problem. I spent 2 hours going through 30+ drivers and crossovers to find a set that measured within even 3 dB of each other so the session could continue.

This post has been edited by Thasp: May 12 2012, 06:10
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- Bartholomew MacGruber   studio monitors and quality of home speakers   Apr 27 2012, 16:52
- - mixminus1   Define "worse". For years, one of the s...   Apr 27 2012, 17:49
|- - Bartholomew MacGruber   QUOTE (mixminus1 @ Apr 27 2012, 17:49) De...   Apr 30 2012, 06:18
|- - DVDdoug   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Apr 29 2012, 2...   Apr 30 2012, 18:52
- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Apr 27 2012, 1...   Apr 27 2012, 18:23
|- - Bartholomew MacGruber   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Apr 27 2012, 18:23) ...   Apr 30 2012, 06:22
|- - tnargs   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Apr 28 2012, 02:53) ...   Oct 23 2012, 02:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (tnargs @ Oct 22 2012, 21:10) QUOTE...   Oct 23 2012, 20:28
- - RonaldDumsfeld   QUOTE the trend to market "pleasing sounding...   Apr 27 2012, 21:16
|- - Ethan Winer   Yes, plenty of examples. Some years back, a fellow...   Apr 28 2012, 17:02
|- - honestguv   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Apr 28 2012, 18:02) ...   Apr 28 2012, 20:15
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (honestguv @ Apr 28 2012, 15:15) QU...   Apr 29 2012, 17:51
|- - markanini   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Apr 28 2012, 17:02) ...   Apr 30 2012, 15:01
|- - tnargs   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Apr 29 2012, 01:32) ...   Oct 23 2012, 01:56
- - tomtomthomson   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Apr 27 2012, 1...   Apr 30 2012, 03:22
- - Typhoon859   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Apr 30 2012, 0...   Apr 30 2012, 08:18
|- - Bartholomew MacGruber   OK, I can't remember all the places that I rea...   Apr 30 2012, 08:44
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Apr 30 2012, 0...   Apr 30 2012, 14:29
||- - seditious3   QUOTE I also seem to remember stuff about recordin...   Oct 22 2012, 17:53
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Typhoon859 @ Apr 30 2012, 03:18) Q...   Apr 30 2012, 14:25
- - AudioKitten   Maybe this is mostly a problem with amateur master...   May 1 2012, 16:25
- - Bartholomew MacGruber   I don't know if it's ever been done before...   May 2 2012, 04:52
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ May 1 2012, 23...   May 8 2012, 13:32
|- - ktf   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 8 2012, 14...   May 8 2012, 16:03
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (ktf @ May 8 2012, 11:03) QUOTE (Ar...   May 9 2012, 14:24
|- - ktf   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 9 2012, 15...   May 9 2012, 14:38
- - _if   If you took a set of any of the good monitors (rea...   May 2 2012, 07:12
|- - stephan_g   QUOTE (_if @ May 2 2012, 07:12) If you to...   May 2 2012, 09:36
|- - Bartholomew MacGruber   QUOTE (_if @ May 2 2012, 07:12) If you to...   May 2 2012, 09:37
- - icstm   is that type of EQ adjustment was audacity type sy...   May 2 2012, 13:19
- - RonaldDumsfeld   Thanks to Ethan for going to the trouble to post t...   May 2 2012, 15:24
|- - honestguv   QUOTE (RonaldDumsfeld @ May 2 2012, 15:24...   May 2 2012, 16:33
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (honestguv @ May 2 2012, 17:33) I w...   May 2 2012, 22:38
|- - Thasp   QUOTE (honestguv @ May 2 2012, 08:33) QUO...   May 12 2012, 05:51
- - RonaldDumsfeld   To be fair Ethan did quote the test methodology. S...   May 2 2012, 18:16
- - RobWansbeck   The dips could be the result of phase cancellation...   May 5 2012, 22:45
- - krabapple   Isn't most studio monitoring on these speakers...   May 9 2012, 16:38
- - markanini   Yeah, the equilateral triangle, each side 3-6 feet...   May 10 2012, 15:18
- - lanayapiper   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Apr 27 2012, 1...   Oct 12 2012, 13:13
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (lanayapiper @ Oct 12 2012, 08:13) ...   Oct 15 2012, 14:50
- - tnargs   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Apr 29 2012, 01:32) ...   Oct 23 2012, 01:36
- - markanini   What are Doug Sax and Rob Ludwig using?   Oct 23 2012, 20:45


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24th October 2014 - 13:57