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Add "Close to tray" behavior option, [No]
danbst
post Apr 15 2012, 11:38
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Previous on "close to tray" series:
2006 - http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44665
2008-2011 - http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=86892
2012 - http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=94142

NB. I'm aware of getting this topic be closed, so I'll try to explain position with arguments, not just "pleeeeiizzz add this option!!11"

Why I don't like "Minimize" button to minimize some apps:
- when foobar is fullscreened, it's much more easier to position on [X] button, not on [_], so I'm waisting time moving pointer around that corner
- I'm used with apps like uTorrent and amaroK, they support Close to tray function on default

Why I'm proposing this option:
- I want foobar to be like "music service" (mocp, mpd on linux), not an application. So closing the "frontend" *MUST NOT* stop the music. Option "Close to tray" is the simplest way to achieve service-like behavior
- one more: foobar is started with system and ended with system down. Music may be paused, but why closing app?
- one more: foobar is low on resources, so it's quite normal to have it started all the time
- I'm proposing an OPTION, not default

Why developers have to add this option:
- there is a bunch of guys, who also like such behavior, and there are cons for it. Why ignore? Make this people happy! This is what makes devs happy - when users are happy.
- standarts. Standarts are good, but two problems:
-- standarts are not constant on time, just on period of time
-- Close on tray behavior is quite standart, when interpreting foobar as "service" and foobar window as "frontend"

Why do I post this. A friend of mine asked me to recommend good player for Windows (he is Linux user). I recommended foobar2000, no doubts. But then he discovered it closes on [X] button: "It's quite like amarok, but how to make it not close on [X]?" - "No ways" - "It's a pity, I'll search myself for alternatives". (he found after some amarok-styled player, which didn't close on close)

That was critical -1 for foobar. I'm not begging on add this functionality, but begging on turning the rational part of mind on - "people need an option, people have arguments, arguments are real - why not adding?".

Peace all!
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q-stankovic
post Apr 15 2012, 11:43
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"close" is close, "minimize" is minimize - it's really that simple!


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german support forum: www.foobar-users.de / user: qwert73
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danbst
post Apr 15 2012, 11:47
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>>> "close" is close, "minimize" is minimize - it's really that simple!
don't generalize. read more carefully on "service" part of message.
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Kohlrabi
post Apr 15 2012, 12:20
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QUOTE (danbst @ Apr 15 2012, 12:47) *
>>> "close" is close, "minimize" is minimize - it's really that simple!
don't generalize. read more carefully on "service" part of message.
foobar2000 isn't a service, and as a matter of fact your generalization that services need to show up in the Notification Area is wrong, not all services show up in there. The purpose of the Notification Area is to show status updates and notifications about running programs, generally not as an alternative taskbar to store minimized applications. To quote the recommendations on MSDN:
QUOTE
The notification area provides notifications and status. Well-designed programs use the notification area appropriately, without being annoying or distracting.

Also take a look at the section titled "Minimized single-instance application", it states that applications may minimize to the Notification Area if certain conditions apply (which foobar2000 already allows), and even that behaviour is strongly discouraged for Win7 and later. MSDN also expressively states:
QUOTE
Use the Minimize button on the application's title bar, not the Close button.

Also, it may be even faster to hit Alt+Space + n (blame MS for not providing a better shortcut) to minimize foobar2000, than hitting the X in the corner.

Personally I loathe all programs who don't close upon hitting the X in the corner, it defies common Windows application rules and the principle of least surprises. It's not at all a standard way. I don't know how adding that feature is beneficial to the usability and user-friendliness of foobar2000, and more options means also more necessary user support due to misconfigurations or misconceptions.

Last but not least, similar discussions (you have linked yourself) have been closed with a WONTFIX answer before, expect the same here, or just straight binning.

This post has been edited by Kohlrabi: Apr 15 2012, 12:23


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Ceterum censeo Masterdiskem esse delendam.
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fbuser
post Apr 15 2012, 12:24
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QUOTE (danbst @ Apr 15 2012, 11:38) *
- when foobar is fullscreened, it's much more easier to position on [X] button, not on [_], so I'm waisting time moving pointer around that corner
It's even faster not to minimize foobar2000 at all and directly switch to the desired application
QUOTE (danbst @ Apr 15 2012, 11:38) *
- I'm used with apps like uTorrent and amaroK, they support Close to tray function on default
There are much more applications, which don't support this.

QUOTE (danbst @ Apr 15 2012, 11:38) *
- I want foobar to be like "music service" (mocp, mpd on linux), not an application. So closing the "frontend" *MUST NOT* stop the music. Option "Close to tray" is the simplest way to achieve service-like behavior
No, the simplest solution is not to close foobar2000 at all. If you don't want to close an application, just don't do it.
QUOTE (danbst @ Apr 15 2012, 11:38) *
- one more: foobar is started with system and ended with system down. Music may be paused, but why closing app?
Again, just don't do it.

QUOTE (danbst @ Apr 15 2012, 11:38) *
Why developers have to add this option:
- there is a bunch of guys, who also like such behavior, and there are cons for it. Why ignore? Make this people happy! This is what makes devs happy - when users are happy.
No! Developers don't have to do anything. Espelly not only because to make someone happy.

QUOTE (danbst @ Apr 15 2012, 11:38) *
- standarts. Standarts are good, but two problems:
-- standarts are not constant on time, just on period of time
-- Close on tray behavior is quite standart, when interpreting foobar as "service" and foobar window as "frontend"
No! Standard is to close an application while clicking on the close button.

BTW: It's spelled standard

QUOTE (danbst @ Apr 15 2012, 11:38) *
That was critical -1 for foobar.
Well, everyone has his own priorities and have to live with the consequences of his poor decisions.

QUOTE (danbst @ Apr 15 2012, 11:38) *
"people need an option, people have arguments, arguments are real - why not adding?".
Because someone have to spent his spare time to add an option he doesn't want. If this would be an option (I know Peter wouldn't do this), how much would you pay for it, to have this functionality?

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danbst
post Apr 15 2012, 12:43
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QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Apr 15 2012, 12:20) *
foobar2000 isn't a service,

Not a "service" in Windows terminology, agree. But "service"-like. Once more, mocp, mpd, amaroK are services or service-like, that what I'm talking about.

QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Apr 15 2012, 12:20) *
Also take a look at the section titled "Minimized single-instance application", it states that applications may minimize to the Notification Area if certain conditions apply (which foobar2000 already allows), and even that behaviour is strongly discouraged for Win7 and later. MSDN also expressively states:
QUOTE
Use the Minimize button on the application's title bar, not the Close button.

Also, it may be even faster to hit Alt+Space + n (blame MS for not providing a better shortcut) to minimize foobar2000, than hitting the X in the corner.

I didn't know about this. Really, all I am based on is my experience, not written rules.

QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Apr 15 2012, 12:20) *
Personally I loathe all programs who don't close upon hitting the X in the corner, it defies common Windows application rules and the principle of least surprises. It's not at all a standard way. I don't know how adding that feature is beneficial to the usability and user-friendliness of foobar2000, and more options means also more necessary user support due to misconfigurations or misconceptions.

Personally, I like experimenting to find better experience, even if it defies Windows aplications' rules. uTorrent showed me new behavior, I don't see why it cannot be applied to foobar, except "there are rules not to do that", which is quite arguable.

QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Apr 15 2012, 12:20) *
Last but not least, similar discussions (you have linked yourself) have been closed with a WONTFIX answer before, expect the same here, or just straight binning.

Hope dies last. I waited 3 years for this. I (not only I) really want this feature as an OPTION.

Anyway thanks for answering, now I better understand devs' position.
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danbst
post Apr 15 2012, 12:51
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QUOTE (fbuser @ Apr 15 2012, 12:24) *
BTW: It's spelled standard

thanks. I'm not englishman, as you see =)

QUOTE (fbuser @ Apr 15 2012, 12:24) *
Because someone have to spent his spare time to add an option he doesn't want. If this would be an option (I know Peter wouldn't do this)

Ok, maybe there is a way to write plug-in for this? That solved the problem too.

QUOTE (fbuser @ Apr 15 2012, 12:24) *
how much would you pay for it, to have this functionality?

interesting question. It is not common to pay for apps in our country (I haven't bought any, even Windows), but, donating say 20$ (as two hours of work) would be good.
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fbuser
post Apr 15 2012, 13:17
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QUOTE (danbst @ Apr 15 2012, 12:51) *
QUOTE (fbuser @ Apr 15 2012, 12:24) *
BTW: It's spelled standard

thanks. I'm not englishman, as you see =)
The same applies to me, but it is a common disease in my country to spell this word (it's the same in German as in English) in the same wrong way as you did. smile.gif

QUOTE (fbuser @ Apr 15 2012, 12:24) *
Ok, maybe there is a way to write plug-in for this? That solved the problem too.
No, not possible.

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db1989
post Apr 15 2012, 19:42
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Another one bites the dust.
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