IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl, Podcast casts its skeptical eye on digital audio
rick.hughes
post Mar 28 2012, 11:59
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 124
Joined: 16-February 07
Member No.: 40679



Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
krabapple
post Sep 16 2012, 18:22
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 2271
Joined: 18-December 03
Member No.: 10538



For us non-Francophones, here's Google Translate's attempt of the Conclusion. Some bits are less comprehensible than others ;>



QUOTE
We found that the difference between vinyl and CD can be heard on digital copy, which is not surprising, vinyl does not have perfect sound.
More surprisingly, the greatest differences are not always found between CD and vinyl (RMB, bad press), but also a vinyl to another (Depeche Mode - A Question of Lust), and even throughout another of the same vinyl (Legendary Pink Dots - Pennies for Heaven / Evolution).
 
Among other differences, the differences in balance bass / treble are important. They vary from one disk to another, from one label to another (the German distributor of Depeche Mode, Intercord, produces vinyl still missing treble), but always returns a trend: these excerpts vinyl have more serious (about 50-100 Hz), and less acute (around 3000 - 12000 Hz) than their counterparts in CD. Cete trend can not be attributed to the recording chain. This is a characteristic of the cell used to read the disc: Stanton Trackmaster EL one. Phonolectrices cells have very different response curves, which determine a large part of their "tonal color."
The CD has the merit to linearize the response curve, very unstable vinyl.
 
It begs the question of whether these differences disappear when we turn to the high end. From my own experience, I found the same saturation and distortion, and the same response curve differences between different vinyl with a platinum Rega Planar 3 (excellent audiophile turntable input range) with a cell Denon DL-110 (voice coil high output). For cons, the trend "serious before, acute withdrawal," which gives a "warm and round" is definitely not a feature of the "vinyl sound" is unique to my system read-only.
 
We can also ask whether the defects highlighted here are not offset by the qualities of vinyl, the digital copy could not reproduce. A blind test conducted with the material used to prepare the samples, same source, same ACD, showed that the loss of quality due to scanning are negligible, even if they are audible: http://www.hydrogenaudio. org / forum [...] = 21 & t = 7953"
 
We have also seen that blind, without prejudice to the race and high volume nasty labels, a remastering of 1998, once compensated volume, seems extremely bad for all listeners, compared to the record original.
 
I hope you enjoyed this test, and allowed you to have a more concrete idea of ​​the faults in the sound of vinyl.



I'm most curious about the statement " blind test conducted with the material used to prepare the samples, same source, same ACD, showed that the loss of quality due to scanning are negligible, even if they are audible" Not sure what this is supposed to mean. If it means, there is a an audible loss of quality due to digitization of an LP -- or even a an audible difference -- that doesn't seem to be demonstrated in the link provided.

Btw, has anyone rigorously examined the per-play variability of a turntable system? I've been told that this alone could make any ABX of vinyl vs a 'needledrop' problematic. If there's an audible difference between the same LP played back twice, then the results of a vinyl vs needledrop would be impossible to ascribe to one cause.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Sep 16 2012, 18:22
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Pio2001
post Sep 16 2012, 21:14
Post #3


Moderator


Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 3936
Joined: 29-September 01
Member No.: 73



QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 19:22) *
For us non-Francophones, here's Google Translate's attempt of the Conclusion. Some bits are less comprehensible than others ;>


Thanks, krabapple,
The translation is indeed terrible. Here is a corrected version :

QUOTE
We found that the difference between vinyl and CD can be heard on digital copies, which is not surprising, vinyl does not have perfect sound.
More surprisingly, the greatest differences are not always found between CD and vinyl (RMB, bad press), but also between a vinyl and another (Depeche Mode - A Question of Lust), and even throughout one side of a single vinyl (Legendary Pink Dots - Pennies for Heaven / Evolution).

Among other differences, the differences in bass / treble are important. They vary from one disk to another, from one label to another (the German distributor of Depeche Mode, Intercord, produces vinyl that always miss treble), but a trend is always present : these copies of vinyl have more bass (about 50-100 Hz), and less treble (around 3000 - 12000 Hz) than their counterparts in CD. This trend can not be attributed to the digitizing chain. This is a characteristic of the cartridge used to read the disc, a Stanton Trackmaster EL. Cartridges have various response curves, which determine a large part of their "tonal color."
Hence, the CD has the merit to linearize the frequency response curve, that is very unstable with vinyl.

We can ask ourselves if these differences disappear when we turn to the high end. From my own experience, I found the same saturation and distortion, and the same response curve differences between different records using a Rega Planar 3 turntable (excellent low-end audiophile turntable) with a Denon DL-110 cartridge (high output moving coil). On the other hand, the trend "more bass, less treble" which gives a "warm and round" sound is definitely not a feature of the "vinyl sound". This is a property of my own playback system.

We can also ask whether the defects highlighted here would not be balanced by other qualities of vinyl, that the digital copy could not reproduce. A blind test conducted with the system used to prepare the samples (same source, same A/D Converter), showed that the loss of quality due to digitalisation is negligible, if audible at all : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....f=21&t=7953

We have also seen that in a blind listening test, without preconceptions about the loudness race and the big nasty record companies, a remastering of 1998, once the levels are aligned, sounds extremely bad for all listeners, compared to the original version.

I hope you enjoyed this test, and that it allowed you to have a more precise idea of the inherent flaws in the vinyl sound.


QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 19:22) *
I'm most curious about the statement " blind test conducted with the material used to prepare the samples, same source, same ACD, showed that the loss of quality due to scanning are negligible, even if they are audible" Not sure what this is supposed to mean. If it means, there is a an audible loss of quality due to digitization of an LP -- or even a an audible difference -- that doesn't seem to be demonstrated in the link provided.


Nope, the translation is wrong. It's not "even if they are audible", but "if audible at all" smile.gif

This post has been edited by Pio2001: Sep 16 2012, 21:16
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
krabapple
post Sep 17 2012, 16:49
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 2271
Joined: 18-December 03
Member No.: 10538



QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 16 2012, 16:14) *
We can ask ourselves if these differences disappear when we turn to the high end. From my own experience, I found the same saturation and distortion, and the same response curve differences between different records using a Rega Planar 3 turntable (excellent low-end audiophile turntable) with a Denon DL-110 cartridge (high output moving coil). On the other hand, the trend "more bass, less treble" which gives a "warm and round" sound is definitely not a feature of the "vinyl sound". This is a property of my own playback system.


So, if I understand clearly, you're saying the boosted bass and reduced treble that you observed from LP, compared to CD, was a product of *your* particular setup, and *not* the vinyl mastering vs CD mastering? Even though you found the same response when you used a different TT and cartridge? This seems contradictory to me.


Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- rick.hughes   Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl   Mar 28 2012, 11:59
- - Fandango   This thread just reminded me that I haven't li...   Mar 28 2012, 21:29
- - Woodinville   Hmm, we shall see how he copes with my comment tha...   Mar 28 2012, 22:45
- - Fandango   Didn't he dodge the big question anyway? He sa...   Mar 29 2012, 03:38
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 28 2012, 22:38) Did...   Mar 29 2012, 17:22
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 29 2012, 11:22) In...   Mar 29 2012, 22:23
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 29 2012, 23:23) What I...   Mar 30 2012, 07:36
||- - mzil   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 30 2012, 01:36) Or, ...   Mar 30 2012, 08:33
||- - greynol   Ignoring CDDA, if you are attempting to suggest th...   Mar 30 2012, 15:56
|||- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 30 2012, 09:56) Igno...   Mar 30 2012, 18:04
|||- - dhromed   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 18:04) I'm...   Mar 30 2012, 20:13
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 10:04) I'm...   Mar 30 2012, 21:25
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 03:33) QUOTE (...   Apr 3 2012, 14:45
||- - mzil   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2012, 08...   Apr 3 2012, 23:32
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 29 2012, 17:23) Althoug...   Mar 31 2012, 22:18
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 31 2012, 16:18) Bu...   Apr 1 2012, 02:22
- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 03:38) I d...   Mar 29 2012, 09:44
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Mar 29 2012, 09:44) QUOT...   Mar 29 2012, 11:26
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 29 2012, 06:26) QUOT...   Apr 3 2012, 14:42
|||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2012, 15...   Apr 3 2012, 17:31
||- - splice   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 29 2012, 03:26) QUOT...   Apr 17 2012, 02:47
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Mar 29 2012, 01:44) QUOT...   Mar 30 2012, 02:01
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 30 2012, 03:01) ...   Mar 30 2012, 07:55
|- - splice   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 29 2012, 22:55) If I...   Mar 31 2012, 00:38
- - Fandango   Right, besides one could analyze the recording for...   Mar 29 2012, 21:13
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 22:13) But...   Sep 15 2012, 16:45
|- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 15 2012, 17:45) Last...   Sep 15 2012, 19:09
- - mzil   Dhromed, Thanks! Great respone, but when I wen...   Mar 30 2012, 21:28
- - Woodinville   Just want to point out that the biggest component ...   Mar 31 2012, 23:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 31 2012, 18:10) ...   Apr 3 2012, 14:50
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 1 2012, 00:10) H...   Apr 5 2012, 07:59
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 5 2012, 01:59) ...ev...   Apr 5 2012, 15:04
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Apr 5 2012, 10:04) I...   Apr 5 2012, 17:55
- - kraut   QUOTE Then there is the FM distortion caused by .....   Apr 3 2012, 17:52
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 09:52) QUOTE [...   Apr 4 2012, 06:19
|- - stephan_g   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 17:52) QUOTE T...   Apr 4 2012, 22:36
||- - splice   QUOTE (stephan_g @ Apr 4 2012, 14:36) ......   Apr 5 2012, 01:45
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 4 2012, 17:45) Many n...   Apr 5 2012, 03:53
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 12:52) QUOTE T...   Apr 6 2012, 14:52
- - kraut   QUOTE Perhaps you should actually read up on the r...   Apr 4 2012, 15:59
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 4 2012, 07:59) QUOTE P...   Apr 5 2012, 03:50
- - kraut   QUOTE [Having said that, playing vinyl twice insid...   Apr 6 2012, 06:28
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 21:28) QUOTE [...   Apr 6 2012, 07:44
||- - DonP   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 02:44) Lo and...   Apr 6 2012, 14:54
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 07:28) And if ...   Apr 6 2012, 07:56
- - kraut   QUOTE Where is the proof? Just claims pulled out o...   Apr 6 2012, 07:37
|- - Woodinville   Since I am not going to go buy an expensive, obsol...   Apr 6 2012, 10:42
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 07:37) My expe...   Apr 6 2012, 12:50
- - kraut   I play with a mixture with distilled water and 99%...   Apr 6 2012, 08:12
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 23:12) I play ...   Apr 6 2012, 12:18
- - greynol   The topic at hand is not about the manner in which...   Apr 6 2012, 08:23
- - krabapple   If you're a masochist there's always this ...   Apr 6 2012, 20:23
- - krabapple   and, btw, the AES e-library is free to search. Re...   Apr 6 2012, 20:49
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 6 2012, 15:49) and...   Apr 8 2012, 12:54
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 8 2012, 04...   Apr 8 2012, 22:00
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 8 2012, 07...   Apr 9 2012, 06:08
- - kraut   QUOTE To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 7 2012, 00:20
|- - splice   QUOTE To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 7 2012, 02:14
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 20:14) ...I r...   Apr 7 2012, 10:37
- - kraut   QUOTE Most of the heat is produced inside the groo...   Apr 7 2012, 03:56
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 19:56) I have ...   Apr 7 2012, 04:16
||- - kraut   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 6 2012, 20:16) Q...   Apr 7 2012, 06:53
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 22:53) The sam...   Apr 7 2012, 08:15
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 19:56) ... Wha...   Apr 7 2012, 10:26
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 7 2012, 11:26) Deteri...   Apr 7 2012, 11:31
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 7 2012, 03:31) QUOTE...   Apr 7 2012, 21:36
- - kraut   Just a last note: I know that my decades long expe...   Apr 7 2012, 07:59
- - splice   I feel a sense of regret that the CD came along wh...   Apr 9 2012, 14:04
- - pdq   @splice: That's an awful lot of conjecture, an...   Apr 9 2012, 16:54
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 9 2012, 08:54) @splice: ...   Apr 9 2012, 22:03
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 9 2012, 23:03) We wer...   Apr 9 2012, 22:44
|- - pdq   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 9 2012, 17:03) QUOTE ...   Apr 10 2012, 15:44
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 10 2012, 07:44) ... If s...   Apr 10 2012, 21:54
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 10 2012, 10:44) If someo...   Apr 11 2012, 16:14
- - splice   @-h, I happen to agree with almost everything you ...   Apr 9 2012, 23:04
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 10 2012, 00:04) @-h, ...   Apr 9 2012, 23:28
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 9 2012, 15:28) I...   Apr 10 2012, 04:58
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 10 2012, 05:58) ...   Apr 10 2012, 09:16
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 10:16) We k...   Apr 10 2012, 10:56
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 11:56) True...   Apr 10 2012, 11:52
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 12:52) I sh...   Apr 10 2012, 18:09
|- - DonP   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 05:56) True...   Apr 10 2012, 16:18
- - Engelsstaub   My system is by no means exotic nor is it expensiv...   Apr 9 2012, 23:28
- - kraut   "To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 10 2012, 04:58
|- - greynol   You may want to look up the word predominant. I d...   Apr 10 2012, 05:07
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 9 2012, 20:58) Having ...   Apr 10 2012, 05:28
- - kraut   QUOTE as is your vile defamation of those who have...   Apr 10 2012, 06:09
- - pdq   Say what you will about two channels, but I grew u...   Apr 10 2012, 12:54
- - lvqcl   Don't know about Soundstream... found this: ht...   Apr 10 2012, 16:39
- - pdq   Only in the world of vinyl would 1% THD be referre...   Apr 17 2012, 13:34
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 17 2012, 08:34) Only in ...   Apr 17 2012, 13:43
- - Pio2001   Yes, that is something that I noticed too. Never l...   Sep 15 2012, 19:31
|- - mzil   On some receivers/preamps the record out selector ...   Sep 16 2012, 00:57
- - krabapple   For us non-Francophones, here's Google Transla...   Sep 16 2012, 18:22
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 13:22) If...   Sep 16 2012, 21:02
||- - krabapple   A disadvantage to any method involving LP is the l...   Sep 17 2012, 16:40
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 19:22) Fo...   Sep 16 2012, 21:14
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 16 2012, 16:14) We c...   Sep 17 2012, 16:49
- - Pio2001   No, I mean that I observed the same distortion art...   Sep 17 2012, 22:23
- - robbo1802   Hello Pio, It has been a long time, I think I las...   Sep 27 2012, 08:03


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 18th September 2014 - 15:21