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Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl, Podcast casts its skeptical eye on digital audio
rick.hughes
post Mar 28 2012, 11:59
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Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl
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splice
post Apr 9 2012, 23:04
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@-h, I happen to agree with almost everything you wrote. Where I beg to differ is in the "striving for exotic systems". I believe we should strive, but not because it raises the price. Some people have the disposable income to indulge their desires to own exotic systems. Their investment pays for the R&D that eventually filters down to "affordable" systems.


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knutinh
post Apr 9 2012, 23:28
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QUOTE (splice @ Apr 10 2012, 00:04) *
@-h, I happen to agree with almost everything you wrote. Where I beg to differ is in the "striving for exotic systems". I believe we should strive, but not because it raises the price. Some people have the disposable income to indulge their desires to own exotic systems. Their investment pays for the R&D that eventually filters down to "affordable" systems.

I dont believe that the world needs much more R&D on regular, high-bandwidth 2-ch playback. I don't believe that most such products contribute by a lot of "R", some seems to be pretty light on "D" as well.

I'd like to see more attention on the capture and rendering of spatially realistic audio and reference playback behaviour (absolute loudness, frequency response etc).

-k
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Woodinville
post Apr 10 2012, 04:58
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QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 9 2012, 15:28) *
I'd like to see more attention on the capture and rendering of spatially realistic audio and reference playback behaviour (absolute loudness, frequency response etc).

-k


That, in a nutshell, is precisely the place where "stereo" falls light-years short.


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knutinh
post Apr 10 2012, 09:16
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QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 10 2012, 05:58) *
QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 9 2012, 15:28) *
I'd like to see more attention on the capture and rendering of spatially realistic audio and reference playback behaviour (absolute loudness, frequency response etc).

-k


That, in a nutshell, is precisely the place where "stereo" falls light-years short.

I've been a member here for some years. These discussions about minute differences between different stereo media never seems to end. Although it can be interesting to follow them due to the energy put into the science of perception as well as the art of debating, I think that the mind and time of those who choose to contribute could have been better spent elsewhere.

Common for these discussions all is that:
1. They usually cannot be confirmed using blind listening
2. When compared to the scale of modifications caused by recording technicians, loudspeaker (placement) etc, they tend to seem irrelevant

Compare this to the case with spatial reproduction. We know that humans can sense the direction of a sound source to within 5 degrees or 1 degree or something thereabout - in a sphere surrounding our head. No doubt further limited in many ways, this nevertheless suggests that sound reproduced over 2 loudspeakers in a room will never be anything but a crude approximation to most general soundfields encountered in real-life. The indeterminacy of the playback setup further means that the sound engineer have no accurate idea of what the playback really will sound like, and is therefore limited in the amount of "tricks" or "compensation" she can apply to the severe limitation that 2 channels represent.

We have all of this cheaply available dsp-power in our hands, and shelf-meters of science on perception. Instead of using this to improve listening experience in a significant way, we argue over audibility of stuff that is 40dB or 96dB below the signal, and playback mechanisms that are too fragile and cost-inefficient to ever become sensible mainstream audio playback systems.

-k
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Nessuno
post Apr 10 2012, 10:56
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QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 10:16) *
We know that humans can sense the direction of a sound source to within 5 degrees or 1 degree or something thereabout - in a sphere surrounding our head. No doubt further limited in many ways, this nevertheless suggests that sound reproduced over 2 loudspeakers in a room will never be anything but a crude approximation to most general soundfields encountered in real-life.


True in general, but every "real life" musical experience comes from musical sources in front of the listener, unless you want to reproduce the player's own experience, so the two channel approximation all in all is not so crude.


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knutinh
post Apr 10 2012, 11:52
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QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 11:56) *
True in general, but every "real life" musical experience comes from musical sources in front of the listener, unless you want to reproduce the player's own experience, so the two channel approximation all in all is not so crude.

I shall stop my offtopic contribution with this post. Perhaps this discussion should be split into a separate thread.

Unless you are trying to simulate the acoustics of an anechoic chamber, and you are also listening in an anechoic chamber, I believe that:
1. The soundfield that you are trying to emulate will include energy from practically all directions (although at highly different levels)
2. The signal coming from your amplifier will be altered by the loudspeakers and room to come from practically all directions (although at highly different levels)

The problem is that 1. and 2. will usually deviate from one another in complex, perceptually significant ways (my claim). The concert hall might include desirable late-arriving significant reflections from side-walls to your left and right (difficult to record and distribute), while the listening room might include an undesirable, significant reflection from the wall directly behind you (difficult to suppress). The individual pipes of an pipe organ will both have a different direct path to your head, and interact with the reverbrant room in somewhat different ways. The end-result is that the sound that reach your ears is "spatially complex", and I believe that there is sufficient evidence that humans have (at least) the low-level sensory aparatus to appreciate such differences. This is in contrast to e.g. energy > 20kHz where evidence of perception is very scarce to say the least.

I think it is reasonable to speculate that "spatial accuracy" is the single largest perceptual audiological flaw in "state-of-the-art" reproduction of acoustic music, perhaps the only. I.e. what cause listeners to perceive the difference between "being there" in a concert hall, and listening to commercial recordings of the same event, when all senses and biases except hearing is excluded.

-k

edit:
Most pop-music is produced with goals different from that of reproducing a real acoustic performance. I think my point still stands: people will be able to perceive more spatially "rich" rendering than we usually have today, and pop music producers might want to exploit this space to do creative stuff. But the reproduction chain from studio to listener severly limits them from doing so.

This post has been edited by knutinh: Apr 10 2012, 12:15
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- rick.hughes   Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl   Mar 28 2012, 11:59
- - Fandango   This thread just reminded me that I haven't li...   Mar 28 2012, 21:29
- - Woodinville   Hmm, we shall see how he copes with my comment tha...   Mar 28 2012, 22:45
- - Fandango   Didn't he dodge the big question anyway? He sa...   Mar 29 2012, 03:38
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 28 2012, 22:38) Did...   Mar 29 2012, 17:22
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 29 2012, 11:22) In...   Mar 29 2012, 22:23
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 29 2012, 23:23) What I...   Mar 30 2012, 07:36
||- - mzil   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 30 2012, 01:36) Or, ...   Mar 30 2012, 08:33
||- - greynol   Ignoring CDDA, if you are attempting to suggest th...   Mar 30 2012, 15:56
|||- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 30 2012, 09:56) Igno...   Mar 30 2012, 18:04
|||- - dhromed   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 18:04) I'm...   Mar 30 2012, 20:13
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 10:04) I'm...   Mar 30 2012, 21:25
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 03:33) QUOTE (...   Apr 3 2012, 14:45
||- - mzil   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2012, 08...   Apr 3 2012, 23:32
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 29 2012, 17:23) Althoug...   Mar 31 2012, 22:18
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 31 2012, 16:18) Bu...   Apr 1 2012, 02:22
- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 03:38) I d...   Mar 29 2012, 09:44
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Mar 29 2012, 09:44) QUOT...   Mar 29 2012, 11:26
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 29 2012, 06:26) QUOT...   Apr 3 2012, 14:42
|||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2012, 15...   Apr 3 2012, 17:31
||- - splice   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 29 2012, 03:26) QUOT...   Apr 17 2012, 02:47
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Mar 29 2012, 01:44) QUOT...   Mar 30 2012, 02:01
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 30 2012, 03:01) ...   Mar 30 2012, 07:55
|- - splice   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 29 2012, 22:55) If I...   Mar 31 2012, 00:38
- - Fandango   Right, besides one could analyze the recording for...   Mar 29 2012, 21:13
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 22:13) But...   Sep 15 2012, 16:45
|- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 15 2012, 17:45) Last...   Sep 15 2012, 19:09
- - mzil   Dhromed, Thanks! Great respone, but when I wen...   Mar 30 2012, 21:28
- - Woodinville   Just want to point out that the biggest component ...   Mar 31 2012, 23:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 31 2012, 18:10) ...   Apr 3 2012, 14:50
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 1 2012, 00:10) H...   Apr 5 2012, 07:59
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 5 2012, 01:59) ...ev...   Apr 5 2012, 15:04
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Apr 5 2012, 10:04) I...   Apr 5 2012, 17:55
- - kraut   QUOTE Then there is the FM distortion caused by .....   Apr 3 2012, 17:52
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 09:52) QUOTE [...   Apr 4 2012, 06:19
|- - stephan_g   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 17:52) QUOTE T...   Apr 4 2012, 22:36
||- - splice   QUOTE (stephan_g @ Apr 4 2012, 14:36) ......   Apr 5 2012, 01:45
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 4 2012, 17:45) Many n...   Apr 5 2012, 03:53
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 12:52) QUOTE T...   Apr 6 2012, 14:52
- - kraut   QUOTE Perhaps you should actually read up on the r...   Apr 4 2012, 15:59
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 4 2012, 07:59) QUOTE P...   Apr 5 2012, 03:50
- - kraut   QUOTE [Having said that, playing vinyl twice insid...   Apr 6 2012, 06:28
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 21:28) QUOTE [...   Apr 6 2012, 07:44
||- - DonP   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 02:44) Lo and...   Apr 6 2012, 14:54
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 07:28) And if ...   Apr 6 2012, 07:56
- - kraut   QUOTE Where is the proof? Just claims pulled out o...   Apr 6 2012, 07:37
|- - Woodinville   Since I am not going to go buy an expensive, obsol...   Apr 6 2012, 10:42
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 07:37) My expe...   Apr 6 2012, 12:50
- - kraut   I play with a mixture with distilled water and 99%...   Apr 6 2012, 08:12
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 23:12) I play ...   Apr 6 2012, 12:18
- - greynol   The topic at hand is not about the manner in which...   Apr 6 2012, 08:23
- - krabapple   If you're a masochist there's always this ...   Apr 6 2012, 20:23
- - krabapple   and, btw, the AES e-library is free to search. Re...   Apr 6 2012, 20:49
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 6 2012, 15:49) and...   Apr 8 2012, 12:54
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 8 2012, 04...   Apr 8 2012, 22:00
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 8 2012, 07...   Apr 9 2012, 06:08
- - kraut   QUOTE To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 7 2012, 00:20
|- - splice   QUOTE To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 7 2012, 02:14
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 20:14) ...I r...   Apr 7 2012, 10:37
- - kraut   QUOTE Most of the heat is produced inside the groo...   Apr 7 2012, 03:56
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 19:56) I have ...   Apr 7 2012, 04:16
||- - kraut   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 6 2012, 20:16) Q...   Apr 7 2012, 06:53
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 22:53) The sam...   Apr 7 2012, 08:15
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 19:56) ... Wha...   Apr 7 2012, 10:26
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 7 2012, 11:26) Deteri...   Apr 7 2012, 11:31
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 7 2012, 03:31) QUOTE...   Apr 7 2012, 21:36
- - kraut   Just a last note: I know that my decades long expe...   Apr 7 2012, 07:59
- - splice   I feel a sense of regret that the CD came along wh...   Apr 9 2012, 14:04
- - pdq   @splice: That's an awful lot of conjecture, an...   Apr 9 2012, 16:54
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 9 2012, 08:54) @splice: ...   Apr 9 2012, 22:03
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 9 2012, 23:03) We wer...   Apr 9 2012, 22:44
|- - pdq   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 9 2012, 17:03) QUOTE ...   Apr 10 2012, 15:44
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 10 2012, 07:44) ... If s...   Apr 10 2012, 21:54
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 10 2012, 10:44) If someo...   Apr 11 2012, 16:14
- - splice   @-h, I happen to agree with almost everything you ...   Apr 9 2012, 23:04
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 10 2012, 00:04) @-h, ...   Apr 9 2012, 23:28
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 9 2012, 15:28) I...   Apr 10 2012, 04:58
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 10 2012, 05:58) ...   Apr 10 2012, 09:16
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 10:16) We k...   Apr 10 2012, 10:56
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 11:56) True...   Apr 10 2012, 11:52
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 12:52) I sh...   Apr 10 2012, 18:09
|- - DonP   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 05:56) True...   Apr 10 2012, 16:18
- - Engelsstaub   My system is by no means exotic nor is it expensiv...   Apr 9 2012, 23:28
- - kraut   "To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 10 2012, 04:58
|- - greynol   You may want to look up the word predominant. I d...   Apr 10 2012, 05:07
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 9 2012, 20:58) Having ...   Apr 10 2012, 05:28
- - kraut   QUOTE as is your vile defamation of those who have...   Apr 10 2012, 06:09
- - pdq   Say what you will about two channels, but I grew u...   Apr 10 2012, 12:54
- - lvqcl   Don't know about Soundstream... found this: ht...   Apr 10 2012, 16:39
- - pdq   Only in the world of vinyl would 1% THD be referre...   Apr 17 2012, 13:34
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 17 2012, 08:34) Only in ...   Apr 17 2012, 13:43
- - Pio2001   Yes, that is something that I noticed too. Never l...   Sep 15 2012, 19:31
|- - mzil   On some receivers/preamps the record out selector ...   Sep 16 2012, 00:57
- - krabapple   For us non-Francophones, here's Google Transla...   Sep 16 2012, 18:22
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 13:22) If...   Sep 16 2012, 21:02
||- - krabapple   A disadvantage to any method involving LP is the l...   Sep 17 2012, 16:40
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 19:22) Fo...   Sep 16 2012, 21:14
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 16 2012, 16:14) We c...   Sep 17 2012, 16:49
- - Pio2001   No, I mean that I observed the same distortion art...   Sep 17 2012, 22:23
- - robbo1802   Hello Pio, It has been a long time, I think I las...   Sep 27 2012, 08:03


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