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Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl, Podcast casts its skeptical eye on digital audio
rick.hughes
post Mar 28 2012, 11:59
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Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl
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kraut
post Apr 7 2012, 00:20
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QUOTE
To determine the actual deformation-force relations, complex groove impedances have been measured as a function of tracking force, groove speed, etc.


QUOTE
At high bearing loads complete plastic flow sets in and the needle leaves a permanent indentation track, while at lower loads the elastic deformation is predominant.


Exactly my contention versus categorical statements by those arguing from authority. Thanks.

It would be nice to know from the original paper what they found to be the tracking force where elastic deformation is dominant vs. permanent deformation.

QUOTE
I'm just pointing out that your belief that the practice is harmless is not supported by the facts.

I still play records wet with good results that I have owned and played back wet since the late sixties and early seventies.
If there is any harm, then it is offset by reducing problems with static, a record that is cleaned during playback etc.
It should also be mentioned that the development of heat during the playback is likely significantly reduced by a cooling agent, be it water alone or in a mix of alcohol (isoprop), thus further reducing the risk of permanent deformation.

QUOTE
Repeated playback (no matter what the timeframe) carries the risk of permanent damage. Obviously, records are observed to wear out with repeated play. No published evidence exists of back-to-back playback causing any more permanent damage than if repeated plays are separated by any longer period of time.


from the horses mouth itself: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...inyl_has_cooled

As to plasticizers in pvc:

I could not find any reference as to what plasticizers are used in PVC specifically for vinyl records. Or that Vinyl acetate was specifically used at all.

QUOTE


QUOTE
Polyvinyl chloride acetate (PVCA) is a thermoplastic copolymer of vinyl chloride and vinyl acetate.[1] It is used in the manufacture of electrical insulation, of protective coverings (including garments), and of credit cards and swipe cards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride_acetate


QUOTE
. The most common plasticizers are derivatives of phthalic acid. The materials are selected on their compatibility with the polymer, their low volatility, their low toxicity, and their cost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chl...er_applications

QUOTE
Copolymers of ethylene and vinyl acetate (E-VA) of a certain composition can be used for the improvement of impact properties (elasticisation) of PVC as well as under certain conditions (grafting) for the preparation of flexible PVC (plasticisation). Products of interesting properties are prepared by blending E-VA (up to ∼ 12%) with PVC or more advantageously by grafting vinyl chloride on special E-VA types. Graft copolymerisation by the suspension method allows the synthesis of E-VA/PVC systems in all ratios (up to 80% E-VA); these polymers are compatible over the whole range in contrast to the blends.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002...010508/abstract
QUOTE
Plasticizers
It has been claimed that some plasticizers leach out of PVC products. However plasticizers do not readily migrate and leach into the environment from flexible vinyl articles because they are physically and tightly bound into the plastic as a result of the heating process used to make PVC particles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride


So again the study by the so called scientists by Discwasher seems to be more than flawed and not worthy any consideration imo.



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splice
post Apr 7 2012, 02:14
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QUOTE
To determine the actual deformation-force relations, complex groove impedances have been measured as a function of tracking force, groove speed, etc.


QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 16:20) *
It would be nice to know from the original paper what they found to be the tracking force where elastic deformation is dominant vs. permanent deformation.


The answer is in the first quote above: It Depends.
It depends on the stylus profile, cantilever mass, suspension compliance, room temperature, "groove speed", and the actual vinyl composition.
As for figures, this area has been well studied. For example: "... we know that stylus pressure per square centimetre is on the order of tons, and that a permanent deformation of the groove is produced under static conditions. Dynamically, the values can vary by more than 12 tons/cm2, positive values causing defomation of the groove wall and negative values causing mistracking." - Jean Hiraga, 1978.
The best advice is to aim towards the maximum recommended tracking force given by the manufacturer of your stylus. Damage caused by high stylus pressure is less noticeable than damage caused by mistracking. I've found several articles in my files containing Scanning Electron Microsocope photos of groove damage caused by various mechanisms.

QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 16:20) *
It should also be mentioned that the development of heat during the playback is likely significantly reduced by a cooling agent, be it water alone or in a mix of alcohol (isoprop), thus further reducing the risk of permanent deformation.


Most of the heat is produced inside the groove walls by the pressure of the stylus deforming the vinyl, not the friction of the stylus against the walls. The presence of a cooling agent has little effect.

As to plasticizers in pvc:

QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 16:20) *
I could not find any reference as to what plasticizers are used in PVC specifically for vinyl records. Or that Vinyl acetate was specifically used at all.


For me, the evidence was that Discwasher found large quantities of acetic acid on the disc surface. Acetic acid is one of the precursors for vinyl acetate.
Apart from the Discwasher mention, there is:

QUOTE
... records are a complex chemical mixture including 85% polyvinyl chloride (PVC), 15% polyvinyl acetate (PVA), antistatic agents, dyes, stabilizers (heavy metals such as lead stearate), modifiers and lubricants. PVA, the exact chemistry of which varies among companies, both aids in the flow of vinyl during record pressing and as a plasticizer. Plasticizers play a critical role in softening the plastic/resin.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue38/lp_sleaves.htm
I recommend this discussion for those interested in optimal storage of LPs. Also Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_disc_records_preservation

QUOTE
Plasticizers
It has been claimed that some plasticizers leach out of PVC products. However plasticizers do not readily migrate and leach into the environment from flexible vinyl articles because they are physically and tightly bound into the plastic as a result of the heating process used to make PVC particles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride

Proof that PVC plasticisers leach out with some alacrity is probably available in your own home, if you have plastic cables (equipment cables, mains extension cables) that have been in contact with acrylic painted surfaces. The plasticiser dissolves the paint and welds the cable and paint surface together, peeling the paint when the cable is moved. Also note that when you buy equipment with flexible leads and polystyrene packaging, the leads are packed in polythene bags. This isn't because it looks pretty, it's because the plasticisers also attack polystyrene. Finally, PVC is no longer used in "cling film" food wrappng because the plasticisers were found to leach out into the food, especially foods containing fats.

QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 16:20) *
So again the study by the so called scientists by Discwasher seems to be more than flawed and not worthy any consideration imo.


I think the last word of your sentence is the operative one. Facts are less partial.


--------------------
Regards,
Don Hills
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Posts in this topic
- rick.hughes   Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl   Mar 28 2012, 11:59
- - Fandango   This thread just reminded me that I haven't li...   Mar 28 2012, 21:29
- - Woodinville   Hmm, we shall see how he copes with my comment tha...   Mar 28 2012, 22:45
- - Fandango   Didn't he dodge the big question anyway? He sa...   Mar 29 2012, 03:38
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 28 2012, 22:38) Did...   Mar 29 2012, 17:22
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 29 2012, 11:22) In...   Mar 29 2012, 22:23
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 29 2012, 23:23) What I...   Mar 30 2012, 07:36
||- - mzil   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 30 2012, 01:36) Or, ...   Mar 30 2012, 08:33
||- - greynol   Ignoring CDDA, if you are attempting to suggest th...   Mar 30 2012, 15:56
|||- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 30 2012, 09:56) Igno...   Mar 30 2012, 18:04
|||- - dhromed   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 18:04) I'm...   Mar 30 2012, 20:13
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 10:04) I'm...   Mar 30 2012, 21:25
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 03:33) QUOTE (...   Apr 3 2012, 14:45
||- - mzil   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2012, 08...   Apr 3 2012, 23:32
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 29 2012, 17:23) Althoug...   Mar 31 2012, 22:18
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 31 2012, 16:18) Bu...   Apr 1 2012, 02:22
- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 03:38) I d...   Mar 29 2012, 09:44
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Mar 29 2012, 09:44) QUOT...   Mar 29 2012, 11:26
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 29 2012, 06:26) QUOT...   Apr 3 2012, 14:42
|||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2012, 15...   Apr 3 2012, 17:31
||- - splice   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 29 2012, 03:26) QUOT...   Apr 17 2012, 02:47
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Mar 29 2012, 01:44) QUOT...   Mar 30 2012, 02:01
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 30 2012, 03:01) ...   Mar 30 2012, 07:55
|- - splice   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 29 2012, 22:55) If I...   Mar 31 2012, 00:38
- - Fandango   Right, besides one could analyze the recording for...   Mar 29 2012, 21:13
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 22:13) But...   Sep 15 2012, 16:45
|- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 15 2012, 17:45) Last...   Sep 15 2012, 19:09
- - mzil   Dhromed, Thanks! Great respone, but when I wen...   Mar 30 2012, 21:28
- - Woodinville   Just want to point out that the biggest component ...   Mar 31 2012, 23:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 31 2012, 18:10) ...   Apr 3 2012, 14:50
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 1 2012, 00:10) H...   Apr 5 2012, 07:59
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 5 2012, 01:59) ...ev...   Apr 5 2012, 15:04
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Apr 5 2012, 10:04) I...   Apr 5 2012, 17:55
- - kraut   QUOTE Then there is the FM distortion caused by .....   Apr 3 2012, 17:52
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 09:52) QUOTE [...   Apr 4 2012, 06:19
|- - stephan_g   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 17:52) QUOTE T...   Apr 4 2012, 22:36
||- - splice   QUOTE (stephan_g @ Apr 4 2012, 14:36) ......   Apr 5 2012, 01:45
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 4 2012, 17:45) Many n...   Apr 5 2012, 03:53
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 12:52) QUOTE T...   Apr 6 2012, 14:52
- - kraut   QUOTE Perhaps you should actually read up on the r...   Apr 4 2012, 15:59
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 4 2012, 07:59) QUOTE P...   Apr 5 2012, 03:50
- - kraut   QUOTE [Having said that, playing vinyl twice insid...   Apr 6 2012, 06:28
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 21:28) QUOTE [...   Apr 6 2012, 07:44
||- - DonP   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 02:44) Lo and...   Apr 6 2012, 14:54
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 07:28) And if ...   Apr 6 2012, 07:56
- - kraut   QUOTE Where is the proof? Just claims pulled out o...   Apr 6 2012, 07:37
|- - Woodinville   Since I am not going to go buy an expensive, obsol...   Apr 6 2012, 10:42
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 07:37) My expe...   Apr 6 2012, 12:50
- - kraut   I play with a mixture with distilled water and 99%...   Apr 6 2012, 08:12
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 23:12) I play ...   Apr 6 2012, 12:18
- - greynol   The topic at hand is not about the manner in which...   Apr 6 2012, 08:23
- - krabapple   If you're a masochist there's always this ...   Apr 6 2012, 20:23
- - krabapple   and, btw, the AES e-library is free to search. Re...   Apr 6 2012, 20:49
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 6 2012, 15:49) and...   Apr 8 2012, 12:54
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 8 2012, 04...   Apr 8 2012, 22:00
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 8 2012, 07...   Apr 9 2012, 06:08
- - kraut   QUOTE To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 7 2012, 00:20
|- - splice   QUOTE To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 7 2012, 02:14
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 20:14) ...I r...   Apr 7 2012, 10:37
- - kraut   QUOTE Most of the heat is produced inside the groo...   Apr 7 2012, 03:56
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 19:56) I have ...   Apr 7 2012, 04:16
||- - kraut   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 6 2012, 20:16) Q...   Apr 7 2012, 06:53
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 22:53) The sam...   Apr 7 2012, 08:15
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 19:56) ... Wha...   Apr 7 2012, 10:26
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 7 2012, 11:26) Deteri...   Apr 7 2012, 11:31
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 7 2012, 03:31) QUOTE...   Apr 7 2012, 21:36
- - kraut   Just a last note: I know that my decades long expe...   Apr 7 2012, 07:59
- - splice   I feel a sense of regret that the CD came along wh...   Apr 9 2012, 14:04
- - pdq   @splice: That's an awful lot of conjecture, an...   Apr 9 2012, 16:54
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 9 2012, 08:54) @splice: ...   Apr 9 2012, 22:03
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 9 2012, 23:03) We wer...   Apr 9 2012, 22:44
|- - pdq   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 9 2012, 17:03) QUOTE ...   Apr 10 2012, 15:44
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 10 2012, 07:44) ... If s...   Apr 10 2012, 21:54
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 10 2012, 10:44) If someo...   Apr 11 2012, 16:14
- - splice   @-h, I happen to agree with almost everything you ...   Apr 9 2012, 23:04
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 10 2012, 00:04) @-h, ...   Apr 9 2012, 23:28
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 9 2012, 15:28) I...   Apr 10 2012, 04:58
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 10 2012, 05:58) ...   Apr 10 2012, 09:16
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 10:16) We k...   Apr 10 2012, 10:56
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 11:56) True...   Apr 10 2012, 11:52
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 12:52) I sh...   Apr 10 2012, 18:09
|- - DonP   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 05:56) True...   Apr 10 2012, 16:18
- - Engelsstaub   My system is by no means exotic nor is it expensiv...   Apr 9 2012, 23:28
- - kraut   "To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 10 2012, 04:58
|- - greynol   You may want to look up the word predominant. I d...   Apr 10 2012, 05:07
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 9 2012, 20:58) Having ...   Apr 10 2012, 05:28
- - kraut   QUOTE as is your vile defamation of those who have...   Apr 10 2012, 06:09
- - pdq   Say what you will about two channels, but I grew u...   Apr 10 2012, 12:54
- - lvqcl   Don't know about Soundstream... found this: ht...   Apr 10 2012, 16:39
- - pdq   Only in the world of vinyl would 1% THD be referre...   Apr 17 2012, 13:34
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 17 2012, 08:34) Only in ...   Apr 17 2012, 13:43
- - Pio2001   Yes, that is something that I noticed too. Never l...   Sep 15 2012, 19:31
|- - mzil   On some receivers/preamps the record out selector ...   Sep 16 2012, 00:57
- - krabapple   For us non-Francophones, here's Google Transla...   Sep 16 2012, 18:22
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 13:22) If...   Sep 16 2012, 21:02
||- - krabapple   A disadvantage to any method involving LP is the l...   Sep 17 2012, 16:40
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 19:22) Fo...   Sep 16 2012, 21:14
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 16 2012, 16:14) We c...   Sep 17 2012, 16:49
- - Pio2001   No, I mean that I observed the same distortion art...   Sep 17 2012, 22:23
- - robbo1802   Hello Pio, It has been a long time, I think I las...   Sep 27 2012, 08:03


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