IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl, Podcast casts its skeptical eye on digital audio
rick.hughes
post Mar 28 2012, 11:59
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 125
Joined: 16-February 07
Member No.: 40679



Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
kraut
post Apr 6 2012, 06:28
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 227
Joined: 24-November 10
Member No.: 85965



QUOTE
[Having said that, playing vinyl twice inside of a short period of time is bad for the vinyl and you will not get the same signal off the record.


I responded to this specific claim. He claims, he has to supply the proof. Not the other way round.

I never stated anything categorically as he did. I am fully aware that over many playbacks vinyl will gradually deteriorate. That's why I playback records wet and remove the residual moisture after playback.
I again ask - where is his proof other than in his anus?

Any measurements as to heat generation between stylus and vinyl at the contact surface? Any measurements of actual deforming happening at the stylus/vinyl surface interface? Any calculation as to the forces exerted by the stylus impacting the vinyl as to time and surface area involved and the resulting deformations, both permanent and temporarily? All that in the lateral ant horizontal planes please.
Any differences between pivoted and tangential arms, differences between various tracking forces, raking angles VTA etc. Differences between cartridges of various compliance?
As you might have gathered from my question for proof: the categorical statements peddled are nonsense considering the parameters and possible variations involved.

As you point out - your knowledge is public - please demonstrate.

I have read over the years so many conflicting statements and so called research as to the topic of vinyl playback and stylus/medium impact that I doubt there is any conclusive statement to be made.
That is why ask for evidence, not idiotic statements.

QUOTE
[Having said that, playing vinyl twice inside of a short period of time is bad for the vinyl and you will not get the same signal off the record.


I find this claim absolutely hysterical in light of so many audiophile;e nonsense one has to contend with on other forums. It reminds me of the claims that everything will make a difference, be it shun mook discs, cryogenated cables, rhodium vs. gold plating etc.
Why is his statement not treated with the usual contempt and reference to TOS 8 or whatever number is applicable as to audibly tested evidence? I am asking not even for that - show me some fucking measurements.

And if you think my language is offensive - so be it, some statements do not deserve better than being severely offended against.

This post has been edited by kraut: Apr 6 2012, 07:00
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
splice
post Apr 6 2012, 07:44
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 125
Joined: 23-July 03
Member No.: 7935



QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 21:28) *
QUOTE
[Having said that, playing vinyl twice inside of a short period of time is bad for the vinyl and you will not get the same signal off the record.


I responded to this specific claim. He claims, he has to supply the proof. Not the other way round. ...


Somewhere in my (paper) files I have a copy of a study performed in the early 80s that examined what happens to a played disc. It included observations on how long a groove takes to recover from the elastic deformation caused by playing. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I was surprised by how long it took. I haven't found the article yet, but while I was looking I did find something on wet playing:

QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 21:28) *
... I playback records wet and remove the residual moisture after playback.


I found a report from a seminar presented by the Discwasher company, summarising the results of some two years of research into the interaction between vinyl disc records and pickup cartridges. Their research naturally included the effects of cleaning fluid.
" ... In one test, a 4 Khz test record was treated with de-ionised water and it was noted that there was a small increase in distortion; but after it had dried the distortion shot up by 20 to 25 dB - and similar results were had with an intermodulation distortion test record. Re-wetting the records brought the idstortion down again, but not to the original levels. Thus wet playing causes a permanent increase in harmonic and IM distortion.
For verification, records were wetted but not played and the eventual conclusion was that the water reacted with chemicals in the vinyl, causing a "puckering" effect. A more detailed explanation came from Dr. Bruce Maier (Discwasher principal), who put most of the blame onto stabilisers that are put into the record for anti-static and other reasons. One of these compounds is a co-polymer resin, vinyl acetate. This dissolves in water, but when it re-forms it makes hard ridges and bumps. I quote Dr. Maier: 'We postulated that acetic acid would be formed in this reaction, so we played the record twice - if the acid was there we thought it needed stirring before we could measure it. Lo and behold, the pH had increased 20 to 30 times. Once that acid is formed, it starts an automatic hydrolysis of the record surface. Now the record dries and spectral analysis reveals that these interfacial changes on the surface of the record cause a permanent puckering.'"

I'll keep looking for the deformation article. Only 11 folders to go...

This post has been edited by splice: Apr 6 2012, 07:46


--------------------
Regards,
Don Hills
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DonP
post Apr 6 2012, 14:54
Post #4





Group: Members (Donating)
Posts: 1471
Joined: 11-February 03
From: Vermont
Member No.: 4955



QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 02:44) *
Lo and behold, the pH had increased 20 to 30 times.


Taking it from roughly neutral (7) to around 160? I've never heard of anything that basic... no doubt it would dissolve right through stainless steel.

They didn't by chance mention 300 dBA speakers in the same article?

This post has been edited by DonP: Apr 6 2012, 15:37
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- rick.hughes   Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl   Mar 28 2012, 11:59
- - Fandango   This thread just reminded me that I haven't li...   Mar 28 2012, 21:29
- - Woodinville   Hmm, we shall see how he copes with my comment tha...   Mar 28 2012, 22:45
- - Fandango   Didn't he dodge the big question anyway? He sa...   Mar 29 2012, 03:38
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 28 2012, 22:38) Did...   Mar 29 2012, 17:22
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 29 2012, 11:22) In...   Mar 29 2012, 22:23
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 29 2012, 23:23) What I...   Mar 30 2012, 07:36
||- - mzil   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 30 2012, 01:36) Or, ...   Mar 30 2012, 08:33
||- - greynol   Ignoring CDDA, if you are attempting to suggest th...   Mar 30 2012, 15:56
|||- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 30 2012, 09:56) Igno...   Mar 30 2012, 18:04
|||- - dhromed   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 18:04) I'm...   Mar 30 2012, 20:13
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 10:04) I'm...   Mar 30 2012, 21:25
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 03:33) QUOTE (...   Apr 3 2012, 14:45
||- - mzil   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2012, 08...   Apr 3 2012, 23:32
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 29 2012, 17:23) Althoug...   Mar 31 2012, 22:18
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 31 2012, 16:18) Bu...   Apr 1 2012, 02:22
- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 03:38) I d...   Mar 29 2012, 09:44
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Mar 29 2012, 09:44) QUOT...   Mar 29 2012, 11:26
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 29 2012, 06:26) QUOT...   Apr 3 2012, 14:42
|||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2012, 15...   Apr 3 2012, 17:31
||- - splice   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 29 2012, 03:26) QUOT...   Apr 17 2012, 02:47
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Mar 29 2012, 01:44) QUOT...   Mar 30 2012, 02:01
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 30 2012, 03:01) ...   Mar 30 2012, 07:55
|- - splice   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 29 2012, 22:55) If I...   Mar 31 2012, 00:38
- - Fandango   Right, besides one could analyze the recording for...   Mar 29 2012, 21:13
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 22:13) But...   Sep 15 2012, 16:45
|- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 15 2012, 17:45) Last...   Sep 15 2012, 19:09
- - mzil   Dhromed, Thanks! Great respone, but when I wen...   Mar 30 2012, 21:28
- - Woodinville   Just want to point out that the biggest component ...   Mar 31 2012, 23:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 31 2012, 18:10) ...   Apr 3 2012, 14:50
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 1 2012, 00:10) H...   Apr 5 2012, 07:59
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 5 2012, 01:59) ...ev...   Apr 5 2012, 15:04
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Apr 5 2012, 10:04) I...   Apr 5 2012, 17:55
- - kraut   QUOTE Then there is the FM distortion caused by .....   Apr 3 2012, 17:52
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 09:52) QUOTE [...   Apr 4 2012, 06:19
|- - stephan_g   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 17:52) QUOTE T...   Apr 4 2012, 22:36
||- - splice   QUOTE (stephan_g @ Apr 4 2012, 14:36) ......   Apr 5 2012, 01:45
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 4 2012, 17:45) Many n...   Apr 5 2012, 03:53
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 12:52) QUOTE T...   Apr 6 2012, 14:52
- - kraut   QUOTE Perhaps you should actually read up on the r...   Apr 4 2012, 15:59
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 4 2012, 07:59) QUOTE P...   Apr 5 2012, 03:50
- - kraut   QUOTE [Having said that, playing vinyl twice insid...   Apr 6 2012, 06:28
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 21:28) QUOTE [...   Apr 6 2012, 07:44
||- - DonP   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 02:44) Lo and...   Apr 6 2012, 14:54
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 07:28) And if ...   Apr 6 2012, 07:56
- - kraut   QUOTE Where is the proof? Just claims pulled out o...   Apr 6 2012, 07:37
|- - Woodinville   Since I am not going to go buy an expensive, obsol...   Apr 6 2012, 10:42
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 07:37) My expe...   Apr 6 2012, 12:50
- - kraut   I play with a mixture with distilled water and 99%...   Apr 6 2012, 08:12
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 23:12) I play ...   Apr 6 2012, 12:18
- - greynol   The topic at hand is not about the manner in which...   Apr 6 2012, 08:23
- - krabapple   If you're a masochist there's always this ...   Apr 6 2012, 20:23
- - krabapple   and, btw, the AES e-library is free to search. Re...   Apr 6 2012, 20:49
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 6 2012, 15:49) and...   Apr 8 2012, 12:54
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 8 2012, 04...   Apr 8 2012, 22:00
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 8 2012, 07...   Apr 9 2012, 06:08
- - kraut   QUOTE To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 7 2012, 00:20
|- - splice   QUOTE To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 7 2012, 02:14
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 20:14) ...I r...   Apr 7 2012, 10:37
- - kraut   QUOTE Most of the heat is produced inside the groo...   Apr 7 2012, 03:56
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 19:56) I have ...   Apr 7 2012, 04:16
||- - kraut   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 6 2012, 20:16) Q...   Apr 7 2012, 06:53
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 22:53) The sam...   Apr 7 2012, 08:15
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 19:56) ... Wha...   Apr 7 2012, 10:26
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 7 2012, 11:26) Deteri...   Apr 7 2012, 11:31
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 7 2012, 03:31) QUOTE...   Apr 7 2012, 21:36
- - kraut   Just a last note: I know that my decades long expe...   Apr 7 2012, 07:59
- - splice   I feel a sense of regret that the CD came along wh...   Apr 9 2012, 14:04
- - pdq   @splice: That's an awful lot of conjecture, an...   Apr 9 2012, 16:54
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 9 2012, 08:54) @splice: ...   Apr 9 2012, 22:03
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 9 2012, 23:03) We wer...   Apr 9 2012, 22:44
|- - pdq   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 9 2012, 17:03) QUOTE ...   Apr 10 2012, 15:44
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 10 2012, 07:44) ... If s...   Apr 10 2012, 21:54
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 10 2012, 10:44) If someo...   Apr 11 2012, 16:14
- - splice   @-h, I happen to agree with almost everything you ...   Apr 9 2012, 23:04
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 10 2012, 00:04) @-h, ...   Apr 9 2012, 23:28
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 9 2012, 15:28) I...   Apr 10 2012, 04:58
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 10 2012, 05:58) ...   Apr 10 2012, 09:16
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 10:16) We k...   Apr 10 2012, 10:56
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 11:56) True...   Apr 10 2012, 11:52
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 12:52) I sh...   Apr 10 2012, 18:09
|- - DonP   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 05:56) True...   Apr 10 2012, 16:18
- - Engelsstaub   My system is by no means exotic nor is it expensiv...   Apr 9 2012, 23:28
- - kraut   "To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 10 2012, 04:58
|- - greynol   You may want to look up the word predominant. I d...   Apr 10 2012, 05:07
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 9 2012, 20:58) Having ...   Apr 10 2012, 05:28
- - kraut   QUOTE as is your vile defamation of those who have...   Apr 10 2012, 06:09
- - pdq   Say what you will about two channels, but I grew u...   Apr 10 2012, 12:54
- - lvqcl   Don't know about Soundstream... found this: ht...   Apr 10 2012, 16:39
- - pdq   Only in the world of vinyl would 1% THD be referre...   Apr 17 2012, 13:34
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 17 2012, 08:34) Only in ...   Apr 17 2012, 13:43
- - Pio2001   Yes, that is something that I noticed too. Never l...   Sep 15 2012, 19:31
|- - mzil   On some receivers/preamps the record out selector ...   Sep 16 2012, 00:57
- - krabapple   For us non-Francophones, here's Google Transla...   Sep 16 2012, 18:22
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 13:22) If...   Sep 16 2012, 21:02
||- - krabapple   A disadvantage to any method involving LP is the l...   Sep 17 2012, 16:40
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 19:22) Fo...   Sep 16 2012, 21:14
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 16 2012, 16:14) We c...   Sep 17 2012, 16:49
- - Pio2001   No, I mean that I observed the same distortion art...   Sep 17 2012, 22:23
- - robbo1802   Hello Pio, It has been a long time, I think I las...   Sep 27 2012, 08:03


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th September 2014 - 00:17