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Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl, Podcast casts its skeptical eye on digital audio
rick.hughes
post Mar 28 2012, 11:59
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Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl
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krabapple
post Apr 6 2012, 20:49
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and, btw, the AES e-library is free to search. Results are returned with abstracts.

e.g. 'vinyl' gets 293 hits, here's a few I foudn particularly interesting:

QUOTE
The Limiting Tracking Weight of Gramophone Pickups for Negligible Groove Damage

It has been observed that when spherical styli are dragged over flat vinyl surfaces, scratches are produced under loads considerably exceeding the elastic limit as calculated from theory. The author, in this paper, describes the results of his experiments which bear out his argument that under load the point of yield begins below the surface; and reaches the surface, producing visible tracks, only after the calculated yield load is exceeded. This critical value of load for styli of various radii has been measured and found to be equivalent to, for a 1-mil stylus, 0.64 gm. for a 90° record groove. No size or skin effect was found with the vinyl material tested.

Author: Barlow, D. A.
Affiliation: Aluminium Laboratories, Ltd., Banbury, Oxon., England
JAES Volume 6 Issue 4 pp. 216-219; October 1958


QUOTE
Groove Deformation and Distortion in Recordings

The elastic and plastic deformation of vinyl record compound under indenters of various profiles has been studied in large-scale tests. Curves of total depth of penetration versus load have been used to calculate the net distortion on record playback. In general, in the lower treble, net distortion is less, and in the upper treble, net distortion is greater than tracing distortion alone. This is important for attempts to reduce tracing distortion by inverse predistortion of the recorded signal. Nylon was also studied as a material with contrasting mechanical properties to vinyl. Further light has been shed on the nature of translation loss.

Authors: Barlow, Donald A.; Garside, Gerald R.
JAES Volume 26 Issue 7/8 pp. 498-510; August 1978


QUOTE
Comments on "On Stylus Wear and Surface Noise in Phonograph Playback System"
When a set of conclusions is reached in a study as fundamental as this, it is certain that particular factors have been accepted as a part of the working hypothesis essential to the formulation of conclusions which are open to challenge by another student of the subject. Mr. Barlow's studies, like those of Prof. Hunt, are thorough and represent another view of the same subject. Almost invariably, the points of departure in such cases become the focal points for study by all concerned. The process of further investigation usully results in the collection of additional test data that removes the subject from the realm of scientific speculation, and places it within the established body of knowledge of the art. Readers wishing to offer supporting or different viewpoints of their own for publication are invited to address them to the Editor. Such comments are especially welcome.

Author: Barlow, D. A.
JAES Volume 4 Issue 3 pp. 116-119; July 1956


QUOTE
Determination of Sliding Friction Between Stylus and Record Groove

A method is presented for determining the coefficient of sliding friction between stylus and record groove. The method consists of measuring the time intervals required for a freely rotating record (on a turntable) to decelerate from one known speed to another, both with and without a stylus sliding in the record groove. The method as been used to evaluate the frictional characteristics of several brands of phonograph records in mind condition and after treatment with various preservatives, cleaners, and antistatic agents. Some test results are presented
Author: Pardee, Robert P.
Affiliation: Ball Corporation, Aerospace Systems Division, Boulder, CO
JAES Volume 29 Issue 12 pp. 890-894; December 1981

.


QUOTE
Disc Record Care and Cleaning Accessories

Since the paper presented by me on a similar theme to the 50th AES Convention at the Cunard International Hotel in London in 1975, investigations into developments in this area have been pursued vigorously both in the UK and in other countries to tackle the problems of -record cleaning- and maintenance.

Author: Aldous, Donald
Affiliation: Hi Fi News and Record Interview, Plymouth
AES Convention:65 (February 1980)


QUOTE
An Investigation into the Increase of Non-Linear Distortion Products from Virgin Tape to Disc Playback

A study was carried out in order to examine the increase in distortion products arising from the various stages in the recording process from virgin tape, via tape copies, right up to and including interaction with specific record pick-up distortions. 1 kHz sinusoidal signals as well as some IM (400 + 4000 Hz) and double tone (9800 + 10200 Hz) signals were recorded at levels increasing in discrete 3 dB steps starting in non-critical range and continuing up to tape compression level. The tape -original- and first and second generation copies were then transcribed together onto 12" LPs. This made possible a study of the distortion progression and also the second and third order distortion combination products. The current practice of recording right up to the modulation limits of the tapes as well as of the disc seems to result in a total distortion percentage which considerably degrades the sound quality. In order to gain an impression of the audible effect of these distortions, some special musical samples were recorded with the same discrete level steps as the measuring signals. These musical samples were subjected to the same copying and transcription processes as the measuring signals and were similar in character (single tone, multi tone). Listening to these musical sample records provided an opportunity to establish perceptibility limits for the human ear regarding amounts of disturbing distortion.

Authors: Stephani, Otfried; Blüthgen, Björn
Affiliation: Polygram GmbH, Hanover, Germany
AES Convention:62 (March 1979) Paper Number:1453


QUOTE
An Experimental Study of Groove Deformation in Phonograph Records

Groove deformation has been analyzed in the literature primarily in terms of classical elasticity theory, which is based on assumptions that are not appropriate for stylus-groove contact. To determine the actual deformation-force relations, complex groove impedances have been measured as a function of tracking force, groove speed, etc. The results obtained are contrasted with classical predictions.

Author: White, James V.
Affiliation: Acoustics Research Laboratory, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA
JAES Volume 18 Issue 5 pp. 497-506; October 1970


QUOTE
Factors Affecting the Needle/Groove Relationship in Phonograph Playback Systems

It is shown that a phonograph pickup stylus riding in the groove of a record partly penetrates the groove walls because of elastic and plastic deformation of the record material. At high bearing loads complete plastic flow sets in and the needle leaves a permanent indentation track, while at lower loads the elastic deformation is predominant. This leads to amplitude distortion in the reproduced signal which may be of two types: one which is a function of the recorded wavelength (G function or translation loss), the other a function of the dynamic moving mass of the stylus/armature (H function or stylus/groove resonance). A third phenomenon (S function or scanning loss) is caused by the finite size of the stylus/groove-wall contact surface. Experiments with specially built pickups show the evolved theory to be valid even for very high frequencies. Special test records with recorded frequencies up to 100,000 Hz were used for these experiments.

Author: Bastiaans, C. R.
Affiliation: Westinghouse Research Laboratories, Pittsburgh, PA
JAES Volume 15 Issue 4 pp. 389-399; October 1967
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Apr 8 2012, 12:54
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QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 6 2012, 15:49) *
and, btw, the AES e-library is free to search. Results are returned with abstracts.

e.g. 'vinyl' gets 293 hits, here's a few I foudn particularly interesting:

QUOTE
The Limiting Tracking Weight of Gramophone Pickups for Negligible Groove Damage

It has been observed that when spherical styli are dragged over flat vinyl surfaces, scratches are produced under loads considerably exceeding the elastic limit as calculated from theory. The author, in this paper, describes the results of his experiments which bear out his argument that under load the point of yield begins below the surface; and reaches the surface, producing visible tracks, only after the calculated yield load is exceeded. This critical value of load for styli of various radii has been measured and found to be equivalent to, for a 1-mil stylus, 0.64 gm. for a 90° record groove. No size or skin effect was found with the vinyl material tested.

Author: Barlow, D. A.
Affiliation: Aluminium Laboratories, Ltd., Banbury, Oxon., England
JAES Volume 6 Issue 4 pp. 216-219; October 1958


QUOTE
Groove Deformation and Distortion in Recordings

The elastic and plastic deformation of vinyl record compound under indenters of various profiles has been studied in large-scale tests. Curves of total depth of penetration versus load have been used to calculate the net distortion on record playback. In general, in the lower treble, net distortion is less, and in the upper treble, net distortion is greater than tracing distortion alone. This is important for attempts to reduce tracing distortion by inverse predistortion of the recorded signal. Nylon was also studied as a material with contrasting mechanical properties to vinyl. Further light has been shed on the nature of translation loss.

Authors: Barlow, Donald A.; Garside, Gerald R.
JAES Volume 26 Issue 7/8 pp. 498-510; August 1978


QUOTE
Comments on "On Stylus Wear and Surface Noise in Phonograph Playback System"
When a set of conclusions is reached in a study as fundamental as this, it is certain that particular factors have been accepted as a part of the working hypothesis essential to the formulation of conclusions which are open to challenge by another student of the subject. Mr. Barlow's studies, like those of Prof. Hunt, are thorough and represent another view of the same subject. Almost invariably, the points of departure in such cases become the focal points for study by all concerned. The process of further investigation usully results in the collection of additional test data that removes the subject from the realm of scientific speculation, and places it within the established body of knowledge of the art. Readers wishing to offer supporting or different viewpoints of their own for publication are invited to address them to the Editor. Such comments are especially welcome.

Author: Barlow, D. A.
JAES Volume 4 Issue 3 pp. 116-119; July 1956


QUOTE
Determination of Sliding Friction Between Stylus and Record Groove

A method is presented for determining the coefficient of sliding friction between stylus and record groove. The method consists of measuring the time intervals required for a freely rotating record (on a turntable) to decelerate from one known speed to another, both with and without a stylus sliding in the record groove. The method as been used to evaluate the frictional characteristics of several brands of phonograph records in mind condition and after treatment with various preservatives, cleaners, and antistatic agents. Some test results are presented
Author: Pardee, Robert P.
Affiliation: Ball Corporation, Aerospace Systems Division, Boulder, CO
JAES Volume 29 Issue 12 pp. 890-894; December 1981

.


QUOTE
Disc Record Care and Cleaning Accessories

Since the paper presented by me on a similar theme to the 50th AES Convention at the Cunard International Hotel in London in 1975, investigations into developments in this area have been pursued vigorously both in the UK and in other countries to tackle the problems of -record cleaning- and maintenance.

Author: Aldous, Donald
Affiliation: Hi Fi News and Record Interview, Plymouth
AES Convention:65 (February 1980)


QUOTE
An Investigation into the Increase of Non-Linear Distortion Products from Virgin Tape to Disc Playback

A study was carried out in order to examine the increase in distortion products arising from the various stages in the recording process from virgin tape, via tape copies, right up to and including interaction with specific record pick-up distortions. 1 kHz sinusoidal signals as well as some IM (400 + 4000 Hz) and double tone (9800 + 10200 Hz) signals were recorded at levels increasing in discrete 3 dB steps starting in non-critical range and continuing up to tape compression level. The tape -original- and first and second generation copies were then transcribed together onto 12" LPs. This made possible a study of the distortion progression and also the second and third order distortion combination products. The current practice of recording right up to the modulation limits of the tapes as well as of the disc seems to result in a total distortion percentage which considerably degrades the sound quality. In order to gain an impression of the audible effect of these distortions, some special musical samples were recorded with the same discrete level steps as the measuring signals. These musical samples were subjected to the same copying and transcription processes as the measuring signals and were similar in character (single tone, multi tone). Listening to these musical sample records provided an opportunity to establish perceptibility limits for the human ear regarding amounts of disturbing distortion.

Authors: Stephani, Otfried; Blüthgen, Björn
Affiliation: Polygram GmbH, Hanover, Germany
AES Convention:62 (March 1979) Paper Number:1453


QUOTE
An Experimental Study of Groove Deformation in Phonograph Records

Groove deformation has been analyzed in the literature primarily in terms of classical elasticity theory, which is based on assumptions that are not appropriate for stylus-groove contact. To determine the actual deformation-force relations, complex groove impedances have been measured as a function of tracking force, groove speed, etc. The results obtained are contrasted with classical predictions.

Author: White, James V.
Affiliation: Acoustics Research Laboratory, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA
JAES Volume 18 Issue 5 pp. 497-506; October 1970


QUOTE
Factors Affecting the Needle/Groove Relationship in Phonograph Playback Systems

It is shown that a phonograph pickup stylus riding in the groove of a record partly penetrates the groove walls because of elastic and plastic deformation of the record material. At high bearing loads complete plastic flow sets in and the needle leaves a permanent indentation track, while at lower loads the elastic deformation is predominant. This leads to amplitude distortion in the reproduced signal which may be of two types: one which is a function of the recorded wavelength (G function or translation loss), the other a function of the dynamic moving mass of the stylus/armature (H function or stylus/groove resonance). A third phenomenon (S function or scanning loss) is caused by the finite size of the stylus/groove-wall contact surface. Experiments with specially built pickups show the evolved theory to be valid even for very high frequencies. Special test records with recorded frequencies up to 100,000 Hz were used for these experiments.

Author: Bastiaans, C. R.
Affiliation: Westinghouse Research Laboratories, Pittsburgh, PA
JAES Volume 15 Issue 4 pp. 389-399; October 1967



It appears to me that if Kraut just bothered to read the abstracts, he's sing a different tune!

This post has been edited by Arnold B. Krueger: Apr 8 2012, 12:54
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- rick.hughes   Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl   Mar 28 2012, 11:59
- - Fandango   This thread just reminded me that I haven't li...   Mar 28 2012, 21:29
- - Woodinville   Hmm, we shall see how he copes with my comment tha...   Mar 28 2012, 22:45
- - Fandango   Didn't he dodge the big question anyway? He sa...   Mar 29 2012, 03:38
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 28 2012, 22:38) Did...   Mar 29 2012, 17:22
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 29 2012, 11:22) In...   Mar 29 2012, 22:23
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 29 2012, 23:23) What I...   Mar 30 2012, 07:36
||- - mzil   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 30 2012, 01:36) Or, ...   Mar 30 2012, 08:33
||- - greynol   Ignoring CDDA, if you are attempting to suggest th...   Mar 30 2012, 15:56
|||- - mzil   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 30 2012, 09:56) Igno...   Mar 30 2012, 18:04
|||- - dhromed   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 18:04) I'm...   Mar 30 2012, 20:13
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 10:04) I'm...   Mar 30 2012, 21:25
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 30 2012, 03:33) QUOTE (...   Apr 3 2012, 14:45
||- - mzil   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2012, 08...   Apr 3 2012, 23:32
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (mzil @ Mar 29 2012, 17:23) Althoug...   Mar 31 2012, 22:18
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 31 2012, 16:18) Bu...   Apr 1 2012, 02:22
- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 03:38) I d...   Mar 29 2012, 09:44
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Mar 29 2012, 09:44) QUOT...   Mar 29 2012, 11:26
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 29 2012, 06:26) QUOT...   Apr 3 2012, 14:42
|||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2012, 15...   Apr 3 2012, 17:31
||- - splice   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 29 2012, 03:26) QUOT...   Apr 17 2012, 02:47
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Mar 29 2012, 01:44) QUOT...   Mar 30 2012, 02:01
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 30 2012, 03:01) ...   Mar 30 2012, 07:55
|- - splice   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 29 2012, 22:55) If I...   Mar 31 2012, 00:38
- - Fandango   Right, besides one could analyze the recording for...   Mar 29 2012, 21:13
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 22:13) But...   Sep 15 2012, 16:45
|- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 15 2012, 17:45) Last...   Sep 15 2012, 19:09
- - mzil   Dhromed, Thanks! Great respone, but when I wen...   Mar 30 2012, 21:28
- - Woodinville   Just want to point out that the biggest component ...   Mar 31 2012, 23:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 31 2012, 18:10) ...   Apr 3 2012, 14:50
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 1 2012, 00:10) H...   Apr 5 2012, 07:59
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 5 2012, 01:59) ...ev...   Apr 5 2012, 15:04
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Apr 5 2012, 10:04) I...   Apr 5 2012, 17:55
- - kraut   QUOTE Then there is the FM distortion caused by .....   Apr 3 2012, 17:52
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 09:52) QUOTE [...   Apr 4 2012, 06:19
|- - stephan_g   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 17:52) QUOTE T...   Apr 4 2012, 22:36
||- - splice   QUOTE (stephan_g @ Apr 4 2012, 14:36) ......   Apr 5 2012, 01:45
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 4 2012, 17:45) Many n...   Apr 5 2012, 03:53
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 3 2012, 12:52) QUOTE T...   Apr 6 2012, 14:52
- - kraut   QUOTE Perhaps you should actually read up on the r...   Apr 4 2012, 15:59
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 4 2012, 07:59) QUOTE P...   Apr 5 2012, 03:50
- - kraut   QUOTE [Having said that, playing vinyl twice insid...   Apr 6 2012, 06:28
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 21:28) QUOTE [...   Apr 6 2012, 07:44
||- - DonP   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 02:44) Lo and...   Apr 6 2012, 14:54
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 07:28) And if ...   Apr 6 2012, 07:56
- - kraut   QUOTE Where is the proof? Just claims pulled out o...   Apr 6 2012, 07:37
|- - Woodinville   Since I am not going to go buy an expensive, obsol...   Apr 6 2012, 10:42
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 07:37) My expe...   Apr 6 2012, 12:50
- - kraut   I play with a mixture with distilled water and 99%...   Apr 6 2012, 08:12
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 5 2012, 23:12) I play ...   Apr 6 2012, 12:18
- - greynol   The topic at hand is not about the manner in which...   Apr 6 2012, 08:23
- - krabapple   If you're a masochist there's always this ...   Apr 6 2012, 20:23
- - krabapple   and, btw, the AES e-library is free to search. Re...   Apr 6 2012, 20:49
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 6 2012, 15:49) and...   Apr 8 2012, 12:54
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 8 2012, 04...   Apr 8 2012, 22:00
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 8 2012, 07...   Apr 9 2012, 06:08
- - kraut   QUOTE To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 7 2012, 00:20
|- - splice   QUOTE To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 7 2012, 02:14
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 6 2012, 20:14) ...I r...   Apr 7 2012, 10:37
- - kraut   QUOTE Most of the heat is produced inside the groo...   Apr 7 2012, 03:56
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 19:56) I have ...   Apr 7 2012, 04:16
||- - kraut   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 6 2012, 20:16) Q...   Apr 7 2012, 06:53
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 22:53) The sam...   Apr 7 2012, 08:15
|- - splice   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 6 2012, 19:56) ... Wha...   Apr 7 2012, 10:26
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 7 2012, 11:26) Deteri...   Apr 7 2012, 11:31
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 7 2012, 03:31) QUOTE...   Apr 7 2012, 21:36
- - kraut   Just a last note: I know that my decades long expe...   Apr 7 2012, 07:59
- - splice   I feel a sense of regret that the CD came along wh...   Apr 9 2012, 14:04
- - pdq   @splice: That's an awful lot of conjecture, an...   Apr 9 2012, 16:54
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 9 2012, 08:54) @splice: ...   Apr 9 2012, 22:03
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 9 2012, 23:03) We wer...   Apr 9 2012, 22:44
|- - pdq   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 9 2012, 17:03) QUOTE ...   Apr 10 2012, 15:44
|- - splice   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 10 2012, 07:44) ... If s...   Apr 10 2012, 21:54
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 10 2012, 10:44) If someo...   Apr 11 2012, 16:14
- - splice   @-h, I happen to agree with almost everything you ...   Apr 9 2012, 23:04
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (splice @ Apr 10 2012, 00:04) @-h, ...   Apr 9 2012, 23:28
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 9 2012, 15:28) I...   Apr 10 2012, 04:58
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 10 2012, 05:58) ...   Apr 10 2012, 09:16
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 10:16) We k...   Apr 10 2012, 10:56
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 11:56) True...   Apr 10 2012, 11:52
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 10 2012, 12:52) I sh...   Apr 10 2012, 18:09
|- - DonP   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 10 2012, 05:56) True...   Apr 10 2012, 16:18
- - Engelsstaub   My system is by no means exotic nor is it expensiv...   Apr 9 2012, 23:28
- - kraut   "To determine the actual deformation-force re...   Apr 10 2012, 04:58
|- - greynol   You may want to look up the word predominant. I d...   Apr 10 2012, 05:07
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kraut @ Apr 9 2012, 20:58) Having ...   Apr 10 2012, 05:28
- - kraut   QUOTE as is your vile defamation of those who have...   Apr 10 2012, 06:09
- - pdq   Say what you will about two channels, but I grew u...   Apr 10 2012, 12:54
- - lvqcl   Don't know about Soundstream... found this: ht...   Apr 10 2012, 16:39
- - pdq   Only in the world of vinyl would 1% THD be referre...   Apr 17 2012, 13:34
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 17 2012, 08:34) Only in ...   Apr 17 2012, 13:43
- - Pio2001   Yes, that is something that I noticed too. Never l...   Sep 15 2012, 19:31
|- - mzil   On some receivers/preamps the record out selector ...   Sep 16 2012, 00:57
- - krabapple   For us non-Francophones, here's Google Transla...   Sep 16 2012, 18:22
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 13:22) If...   Sep 16 2012, 21:02
||- - krabapple   A disadvantage to any method involving LP is the l...   Sep 17 2012, 16:40
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 16 2012, 19:22) Fo...   Sep 16 2012, 21:14
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Sep 16 2012, 16:14) We c...   Sep 17 2012, 16:49
- - Pio2001   No, I mean that I observed the same distortion art...   Sep 17 2012, 22:23
- - robbo1802   Hello Pio, It has been a long time, I think I las...   Sep 27 2012, 08:03


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