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Quantization Grid, Split from Topic ID #55966
KMD
post Mar 10 2012, 11:58
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I have thought that this phenomana may be real for years . I call it the "quantiztion grid". An analog waveform can change direction or cross the zero line at an infinite number of locations. Sampling and Quantization create a grid to which features of the waveform are statistically constrained. Increasing the sample rate at a fixed bandwidth inreases the quantization grid density. Whether it is perceivable is what is in question. This experiment may have proved it. I will give some thought to a simillar experiment that forum members can do for themselves and start a new topic on it.
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pdq
post Mar 20 2012, 21:30
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It's always present. Dither simply replaces much of it with a different kind of noise.
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- KMD   Quantization Grid   Mar 10 2012, 11:58
- - AstralStorm   There's no "quantization grid", it...   Mar 10 2012, 17:28
|- - KMD   The quantization grid is not caused by sampling it...   Mar 10 2012, 21:30
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 11 2012, 00:30) The digi...   Mar 10 2012, 21:43
- - KMD   The output of the D to A is derived from a regular...   Mar 10 2012, 22:05
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 11 2012, 01:05) The outp...   Mar 10 2012, 22:21
- - Speedskater   About a year or so ago, j.j. wrote: In fact, we c...   Mar 10 2012, 22:16
- - KMD   Just for clarify when I say co-ordinate I mean x a...   Mar 10 2012, 22:21
- - KMD   ivqci - I am talking about regularity in the shape...   Mar 10 2012, 22:24
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 10 2012, 21:24) ivqci - ...   Mar 12 2012, 17:08
|- - KMD   when you say can be seen on a scope I guess you me...   Mar 12 2012, 17:23
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 12 2012, 16:23) when you...   Mar 12 2012, 18:23
- - lvqcl   But we cannot hear the shape.   Mar 10 2012, 22:31
- - KMD   lvqcl- But whatever we do hear must be derived f...   Mar 10 2012, 22:39
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 10 2012, 22:39) lvqcl- ...   Mar 11 2012, 12:50
|- - NullC   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 11 2012, 04:50) Th...   Mar 12 2012, 01:30
- - KMD   The movement of the quantization levels by ditheri...   Mar 12 2012, 15:58
- - KMD   Thanks for the discussion. My conclusion on this...   Mar 19 2012, 11:14
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 06:14) Thanks f...   Mar 19 2012, 13:39
- - KMD   Hello Arnold Signal to noise ratio, and resoluti...   Mar 19 2012, 14:28
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 09:28) Signal t...   Mar 20 2012, 19:23
- - icstm   Is Arnold not saying that the output signal might ...   Mar 19 2012, 15:14
- - KMD   Hi icstm An analogue recording system has infini...   Mar 19 2012, 15:19
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 10:19) Hi icstm...   Mar 20 2012, 19:30
- - 2Bdecided   Until you define the meaning of the term "res...   Mar 19 2012, 15:24
- - KMD   Resolution is the smallest detail a system can rec...   Mar 19 2012, 15:29
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 14:29) Resoluti...   Mar 19 2012, 15:48
- - KMD   Sampling has nothing to do with it . Sampling is t...   Mar 19 2012, 16:00
- - icstm   yes, but what makes you say a analogue signal can ...   Mar 19 2012, 16:07
- - KMD   I did not mention accuracy and precision. The subj...   Mar 19 2012, 16:11
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 15:11) I did no...   Mar 19 2012, 19:03
- - icstm   resolution is comparible with precision it is the ...   Mar 19 2012, 17:14
- - knutinh   Being able to recreate infinitely small signals wo...   Mar 19 2012, 23:32
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 19 2012, 22:32) Bein...   Mar 20 2012, 10:38
- - KMD   - icstm , you are confusing resolution with sign...   Mar 20 2012, 10:57
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 20 2012, 05:57) - icstm ...   Mar 20 2012, 19:33
- - icstm   no, I am saying that resolution is only relevant i...   Mar 20 2012, 11:28
- - KMD   No, the small variations in the waveform are there...   Mar 20 2012, 11:57
- - greynol   Why do you keep insisting that dither must be pres...   Mar 20 2012, 15:09
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 14:09) Why ...   Mar 20 2012, 17:33
|- - greynol   I'm more than a bit skeptical of that.   Mar 20 2012, 18:11
||- - pdq   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 13:11) I...   Mar 20 2012, 18:36
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 20 2012, 13:36) QUOTE (g...   Mar 20 2012, 19:36
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 20 2012, 11...   Mar 20 2012, 19:42
|||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 18:42) QUOT...   Mar 20 2012, 19:52
|||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 14:52) QU...   Mar 20 2012, 20:02
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 20 2012, 17:36) I'm ...   Mar 20 2012, 19:43
||- - greynol   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 11:43) Th...   Mar 20 2012, 19:54
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 18:54) QUOT...   Mar 20 2012, 19:59
|||- - drewfx   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 13:59) Th...   Mar 20 2012, 21:13
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 18:54) not ...   Mar 20 2012, 20:03
|- - Speedskater   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 12:33) Fo...   Mar 21 2012, 00:34
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Speedskater @ Mar 20 2012, 23:34) ...   Mar 21 2012, 11:02
- - greynol   Are you trying to tell me inter-sample points don...   Mar 20 2012, 18:46
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 13:46) Are ...   Mar 20 2012, 19:41
- - pdq   The reconstruction filter only filters out frequen...   Mar 20 2012, 18:53
|- - greynol   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 20 2012, 10:53) leaving ...   Mar 20 2012, 19:06
- - greynol   I edited my previous response to include your foll...   Mar 20 2012, 20:02
- - greynol   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 12:03) Fr...   Mar 20 2012, 20:08
- - 2Bdecided   Ah, maybe we're at cross purposes, and don...   Mar 20 2012, 20:09
- - googlebot   Aren't those pictures just showing that not en...   Mar 20 2012, 20:30
- - pdq   It's always present. Dither simply replaces mu...   Mar 20 2012, 21:30
- - drewfx   Understood. The point I'm making is that the ...   Mar 20 2012, 21:39
|- - greynol   QUOTE (drewfx @ Mar 20 2012, 13:39) The p...   Mar 20 2012, 21:43
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 21:43) QUOT...   Mar 20 2012, 22:07
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 20 2012, 21:07) 2B...   Mar 21 2012, 11:03
- - greynol   The image of the dithered 50Hz wave is pretty much...   Mar 20 2012, 21:40
- - greynol   Yet the "error" plainly indicates the av...   Mar 21 2012, 00:00
- - greynol   Yes, noise (thermal, shot, interference, etc.) tha...   Mar 21 2012, 01:03
- - KMD   At what stage did you add the dither noise David....   Mar 21 2012, 12:37
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 11:37) At what ...   Mar 21 2012, 13:10
- - KMD   The fact that you are sweeping the frequency adds ...   Mar 21 2012, 13:25
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 12:25) We don...   Mar 21 2012, 15:07
- - pdq   What would be the point? We have established that ...   Mar 21 2012, 14:50
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 21 2012, 13:50) What wou...   Mar 21 2012, 15:40
- - KMD   pdq -look at the 2nd image in 2bdecided post68 a...   Mar 21 2012, 15:08
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 14:08) pdq -loo...   Mar 21 2012, 15:48
- - KMD   David - What does the frequncey spectrum analys...   Mar 21 2012, 15:35
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 14:35) David - ...   Mar 21 2012, 15:45
- - KMD   Use the FFT to check that the harmonics are not th...   Mar 21 2012, 16:07
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 15:07) Use the ...   Mar 21 2012, 16:12
- - KMD   do the fft to confirm that the harmonics are not t...   Mar 21 2012, 16:16
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 15:16) do the f...   Mar 21 2012, 16:34
- - Rotareneg   Delta-sigma modulation must be a hoax.   Mar 21 2012, 16:40
- - KMD   " yes Boss" LOL I'm glad we can h...   Mar 21 2012, 17:11
- - KMD   The image in post 77 is way to square. A reconstr...   Mar 21 2012, 17:36
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 16:36) The imag...   Mar 21 2012, 17:46
- - KMD   When you say 8x oversampled to simulate reconstruc...   Mar 21 2012, 18:02
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 21:02) which co...   Mar 21 2012, 18:49
|- - greynol   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 10:02) is a gen...   Mar 21 2012, 20:40
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 13:02) But to s...   Mar 21 2012, 21:25
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 12:02) But to s...   Mar 22 2012, 01:18
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 17:02) When you...   Mar 22 2012, 11:13
|- - greynol   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 22 2012, 03:13) Be...   Mar 22 2012, 13:55
|- - pdq   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 08:55) Sinc...   Mar 22 2012, 14:24
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 12:55) My t...   Mar 22 2012, 14:57
- - KMD   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 18:52) I...   Mar 22 2012, 10:00
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 22 2012, 09:00) Because ...   Mar 22 2012, 11:03
- - greynol   What about ringing?   Mar 22 2012, 14:41
- - WernerO   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 14:41) What...   Mar 22 2012, 14:59
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