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ABX testing vs. unconscious perception/decision, enjoyment, and so on, Split from “xiphmont—‘There is no point to 24/192’”/TID:93853 (TOS #5)
icstm
post Mar 16 2012, 12:31
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SOME THOUGHTS

All this talk about skin “hearing” music, “feeling” the vibrations of the music etc raises for me a separate debate.

Whilst I completely agree that ABX is an excellent tool for spotting consciously detectable differences (ie respondents must be wilfully aware of the difference to make their choice) what about our unconscious decisioning? Just the other day their was a BBC documentary “out of control” which they were explaining how your unconscious mind is often calling the shots and influencing the decisions you make.

So we have 3 different types of tests:
1) Signal waveform analysis (as was used to check to see if JPlay was doing anything or FLAC v WAV using Audio DiffMaker
2) ABX audio testing (man in the middle) for checking for conscious discrimination of different samples
3) Enjoyment factor (or some other form of what some philosophers call qualia)


I am not saying to know that our skin reacts to sound or anything like that however I can believe that there is more to our enjoyment of music than just what our ears hear, for example I was at a classical concert yesterday and we slipped from the back to some seats in the front where we could feel the power of the music more in our bellies. Is this just due to the increased volume and would our ears have provided our brains with sufficient information if I had desensitised my stomach – I am not so sure. Now clearly in this example I was conscious of this effect, but there may be others I was not and yet still added to my overall enjoyment.

So even assuming that enjoyment is a wholly conscious act there could be unconscious inputs that the brain turns into conscious states. However these states could be impacted by the ABX test in 2 ways:
A. Not enough time is allowed for in playing the samples for these unconscious inputs to take effect
B. The act of enjoying a concert vs the act of trying to spot differences mean the brain is trying to do different things and thus doing the second might not require the same inputs as used in the first (I assume we are happy that the outputs of those 2 exercises are likely to be different and in a different form

Now bear in mind that for this thread I am in the 16/44 is sufficient for playback camp – I am still saying I am not fully satisfied that tests (1) and (2) are sufficient to provide complete proof. It is a bit like evolution (as some other poster mentioned). There is some proof for the theory, there are many wholes (for example in the fossil line) however there is no proof for any other theory...

This post has been edited by icstm: Mar 16 2012, 12:39
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icstm
post Mar 28 2012, 11:06
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QUOTE (DonP @ Mar 27 2012, 13:06) *
QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 27 2012, 05:41) *
We also have EEG/fMRI and other scans that could show a difference.


Given the noise, possible claustrophobia, and reported direct stimulation of nerves by MRI machines, I don't see how it would be a good tool for measuring subliminal sound effects below the threshold that ABX could.

I completely agree that this is a likely limitation and posted as such some posts earlier. However I still think it shows that there are tools at our disposal.

QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 27 2012, 13:14) *
To then fall back on "subconscious perception" is to look in an entirely different place. The strong conscious belief was either due to conscious perception, or placebo. Where sighted test = difference heard, and otherwise identical but double-blind test = no difference heard, we know what was heard in the first test. We don't need to look any further.

I agree that the group you refer to have not offered up any meaningful information to support their case. In fact I think we have concluded that to date this is no (or almost no) evidence that supports their case that this forum has come across.

QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 27 2012, 18:44) *
QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 27 2012, 02:41) *
but we have satellites and telescopes that would have shown some proof of flying spaghetti monsters by now.

I hope I am not the only one who sees the irony in this.
only if you beleive that we have trained our equipment to look in the right places.

Look I am not a biologist, but an engineer by training, so like block diagrams...

1. Real world inputs
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V

2. Transducers on our sensors (eyes, ears, etc)
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3. Central nervous processing
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4. Brain processing
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V

{5a. low order Conscious decisioning and control (unrelated example – choosing the order of words to type)
& 5b. unconscious decisioning and control (unrelated example – typing words you know how to type and spell already)}
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6. Conscious decisioning, feedback
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7. emotional states


Maybe this picture is wrong which is why I am at odds with people in this thread.
So I am happy to be corrected, however if it is right then what I am suggesting is that:

A) Waveform analysis can compare different signals (to decide if there are variations in (1) [answer there can be]
B) ABX checks for differences in 5a
C) Depending on what you want to do in (6) your final state in (7) may be different

We have not tested 5b and if 5b can impact 7 (or indeed (6)) then this is an omission that should be observed, even if we believe it to be insignificant.
I am not saying that I think it is significant and that only greynol at al. think otherwise, I am truly saying that I do not think it will radically change our view of these other music formats, however it will surely improve our understanding all 7 stages of the end to end process.

This post has been edited by icstm: Mar 28 2012, 11:07
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Woodinville
post Mar 28 2012, 20:39
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QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 28 2012, 03:06) *
[We have not tested 5b and if 5b can impact 7 (or indeed (6)) then this is an omission that should be observed, even if we believe it to be insignificant.
I am not saying that I think it is significant and that only greynol at al. think otherwise, I am truly saying that I do not think it will radically change our view of these other music formats, however it will surely improve our understanding all 7 stages of the end to end process.


My goodness, please see audioskeptic.blogspot.com

What you are missing is what can,and what can not, be detected at all on the auditory periphery.

This post has been edited by Woodinville: Mar 28 2012, 20:41


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Posts in this topic
- icstm   ABX testing vs. unconscious perception/decision, enjoyment, and so on   Mar 16 2012, 12:31
- - dhromed   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 12:31) I was ...   Mar 16 2012, 12:56
- - Speedskater   In a really good ABX test: First] The listener sh...   Mar 16 2012, 13:24
- - pdq   Don't assume any limitations to how ABX testin...   Mar 16 2012, 13:32
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 16 2012, 13:32) Don...   Mar 16 2012, 15:20
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 16 2012, 10:20) QUOTE...   Mar 16 2012, 18:11
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 16 2012, 18...   Mar 16 2012, 19:20
- - icstm   QUOTE (dhromed @ Mar 16 2012, 11:56) QUOT...   Mar 16 2012, 14:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 09:10) QUOTE ...   Mar 16 2012, 14:46
- - pdq   There are many ways that one could envision determ...   Mar 16 2012, 14:20
- - KMD   I agree that being engrosed in a listening experi...   Mar 16 2012, 14:25
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 16 2012, 09:25) I agree ...   Mar 16 2012, 14:51
- - icstm   pdq - I agree that there should be a way to measu...   Mar 16 2012, 14:31
- - KMD   How about adding market discipline to an ABX test....   Mar 16 2012, 14:36
- - KMD   I wasn't refering to a live venue. By listeni...   Mar 16 2012, 15:00
- - pdq   I only mention testing over longer periods to coun...   Mar 16 2012, 15:33
- - drewfx   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 06:31) SOME T...   Mar 16 2012, 16:52
|- - icstm   @drewfx I think you are missing what I am saying....   Mar 16 2012, 17:16
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 11:16) I am s...   Mar 16 2012, 17:46
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 11:16) As KMD...   Mar 16 2012, 21:02
- - KMD   icstm - yes an EEG filts in with my idea of how ...   Mar 16 2012, 17:22
- - googlebot   If your primary listening situation is sighted, an...   Mar 16 2012, 20:16
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 16 2012, 20:16) If...   Mar 18 2012, 15:04
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 18 2012, 15:04) I am ...   Mar 18 2012, 15:40
|- - splice   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 18 2012, 06:40) .....   Mar 19 2012, 00:17
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (splice @ Mar 18 2012, 19:17) QUOTE...   Mar 19 2012, 16:56
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 19 2012, 16...   Mar 19 2012, 19:04
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (splice @ Mar 19 2012, 00:17) Er......   Mar 19 2012, 20:04
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 19 2012, 15:04) QU...   Mar 20 2012, 14:38
- - icstm   BACK TO MY OP How does THIS page change things? It...   Mar 19 2012, 12:59
- - greynol   A search of the forum should have revealed that th...   Mar 19 2012, 13:03
- - icstm   ah, did not realise that it was the much discredit...   Mar 19 2012, 14:55
|- - DonP   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 19 2012, 09:55) Has an...   Mar 19 2012, 15:09
- - icstm   yeah, I was thinking about that too. Plus they are...   Mar 19 2012, 16:09
- - icstm   A PLL is to sync to signals to the same clock, whe...   Mar 20 2012, 16:48
- - pdq   The amount of filtering that you can apply to the ...   Mar 20 2012, 17:37
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 07:31) SOME T...   Mar 20 2012, 18:09
- - icstm   If you are forgetting that you are doing an ABX, t...   Mar 22 2012, 12:36
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 22 2012, 07:36) If you...   Mar 23 2012, 00:08
- - greynol   http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st...   Mar 22 2012, 14:31
|- - icstm   @greynol You've lost me there, Arnold was prov...   Mar 22 2012, 17:04
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 22 2012, 11:04) Drewfi...   Mar 22 2012, 18:05
|- - icstm   QUOTE (drewfx @ Mar 22 2012, 17:05) If yo...   Mar 23 2012, 12:44
|- - Porcus   Could a signal just above the hearing threshold ca...   Mar 23 2012, 17:29
- - greynol   I guess I'd like to see you answer drewfx...   Mar 22 2012, 17:59
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 12:59) I gu...   Mar 23 2012, 00:12
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 23 2012, 00...   Mar 23 2012, 00:46
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 22 2012, 18...   Mar 23 2012, 02:06
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 22 2012, 18...   Mar 23 2012, 21:10
- - greynol   To take this further, someone investing time and/o...   Mar 22 2012, 18:23
- - greynol   Here we go again with the flying spaghetti monster...   Mar 23 2012, 01:26
- - greynol   Because of my masochistic tendencies, I had to go ...   Mar 23 2012, 06:03
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 23 2012, 05:03) Spoi...   Mar 23 2012, 10:30
- - icstm   @greynol There was a post in that old thred you p...   Mar 23 2012, 12:51
- - greynol   Are we expected to believe the more consciously at...   Mar 23 2012, 17:13
- - icstm   I agree, but nor have I seen evidence for any test...   Mar 26 2012, 14:42
- - greynol   Should I start binning appeals to the flying spagh...   Mar 26 2012, 15:01
- - icstm   but we have satellites and telescopes that would h...   Mar 27 2012, 10:41
|- - DonP   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 27 2012, 05:41) We als...   Mar 27 2012, 14:06
|- - greynol   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 27 2012, 02:41) but we...   Mar 27 2012, 19:44
- - 2Bdecided   This "subconscious perception" is a red ...   Mar 27 2012, 14:14
- - googlebot   That placebo can cause a significant effect on the...   Mar 27 2012, 19:19
|- - greynol   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 27 2012, 11:19) So...   Mar 27 2012, 19:29
|- - googlebot   I have stopped arguing with audiophiles in my soci...   Mar 27 2012, 20:03
||- - JJZolx   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 27 2012, 12:03) Ju...   Mar 28 2012, 02:30
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 27 2012, 19:29) Hope...   Mar 28 2012, 09:39
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 27 2012, 20:29) I wa...   Mar 28 2012, 10:15
- - greynol   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 27 2012, 12:03) No...   Mar 27 2012, 20:21
- - Woodinville   A blog I wrote on the psychology behind this issue...   Mar 27 2012, 23:28
- - icstm   QUOTE (DonP @ Mar 27 2012, 13:06) QUOTE (...   Mar 28 2012, 11:06
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 28 2012, 03:06) [We ha...   Mar 28 2012, 20:39
- - knutinh   If it cannot be registered, cannot make reliable p...   Mar 28 2012, 11:33
- - icstm   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 28 2012, 19:39) ...   Mar 29 2012, 10:15
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 29 2012, 09:15) I mean...   Mar 29 2012, 11:10
||- - icstm   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 29 2012, 10:10) QU...   Mar 29 2012, 11:55
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 29 2012, 03:10) It...   Mar 30 2012, 02:09
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 29 2012, 02:15) QUOTE ...   Mar 30 2012, 02:06
|- - icstm   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 30 2012, 01:06) ...   Mar 30 2012, 10:25
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 30 2012, 02:25) QUOTE ...   Mar 30 2012, 21:09
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 30 2012, 11:25) I did ...   Apr 2 2012, 11:40
- - icstm   @Woodinville You are right, I am not well versed i...   Apr 2 2012, 10:23
|- - greynol   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 2 2012, 02:23) From wh...   Apr 2 2012, 17:29
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 2 2012, 09:29) QUOTE...   Apr 3 2012, 09:20
||- - Paulhoff   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 3 2012, 04:20) I...   Apr 4 2012, 00:35
|- - icstm   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 2 2012, 16:29) The p...   Apr 3 2012, 10:44
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 3 2012, 02:44) The fac...   Apr 3 2012, 23:32
|- - icstm   @ 'Woodinville' Actually I am completely...   Apr 4 2012, 10:24
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 4 2012, 02:24) However...   Apr 4 2012, 12:03
||- - icstm   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 4 2012, 11:03) U...   Apr 5 2012, 11:32
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 5 2012, 11:32) But I a...   Apr 5 2012, 11:47
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 5 2012, 06:32) QUOTE (...   Apr 6 2012, 16:44
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 4 2012, 05:24) However...   Apr 4 2012, 13:01
|- - Paulhoff   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 4 2012, 08...   Apr 4 2012, 16:36
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Paulhoff @ Apr 4 2012, 11:36) QUOT...   Apr 6 2012, 16:32
- - greynol   I wouldn't necessarily assume that discussions...   Apr 3 2012, 15:27
- - icstm   Hope everyone had a good Easter break. Reading tho...   Apr 10 2012, 11:19


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