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ABX testing vs. unconscious perception/decision, enjoyment, and so on, Split from “xiphmont—‘There is no point to 24/192’”/TID:93853 (TOS #5)
icstm
post Mar 16 2012, 12:31
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SOME THOUGHTS

All this talk about skin “hearing” music, “feeling” the vibrations of the music etc raises for me a separate debate.

Whilst I completely agree that ABX is an excellent tool for spotting consciously detectable differences (ie respondents must be wilfully aware of the difference to make their choice) what about our unconscious decisioning? Just the other day their was a BBC documentary “out of control” which they were explaining how your unconscious mind is often calling the shots and influencing the decisions you make.

So we have 3 different types of tests:
1) Signal waveform analysis (as was used to check to see if JPlay was doing anything or FLAC v WAV using Audio DiffMaker
2) ABX audio testing (man in the middle) for checking for conscious discrimination of different samples
3) Enjoyment factor (or some other form of what some philosophers call qualia)


I am not saying to know that our skin reacts to sound or anything like that however I can believe that there is more to our enjoyment of music than just what our ears hear, for example I was at a classical concert yesterday and we slipped from the back to some seats in the front where we could feel the power of the music more in our bellies. Is this just due to the increased volume and would our ears have provided our brains with sufficient information if I had desensitised my stomach – I am not so sure. Now clearly in this example I was conscious of this effect, but there may be others I was not and yet still added to my overall enjoyment.

So even assuming that enjoyment is a wholly conscious act there could be unconscious inputs that the brain turns into conscious states. However these states could be impacted by the ABX test in 2 ways:
A. Not enough time is allowed for in playing the samples for these unconscious inputs to take effect
B. The act of enjoying a concert vs the act of trying to spot differences mean the brain is trying to do different things and thus doing the second might not require the same inputs as used in the first (I assume we are happy that the outputs of those 2 exercises are likely to be different and in a different form

Now bear in mind that for this thread I am in the 16/44 is sufficient for playback camp – I am still saying I am not fully satisfied that tests (1) and (2) are sufficient to provide complete proof. It is a bit like evolution (as some other poster mentioned). There is some proof for the theory, there are many wholes (for example in the fossil line) however there is no proof for any other theory...

This post has been edited by icstm: Mar 16 2012, 12:39
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googlebot
post Mar 16 2012, 20:16
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If your primary listening situation is sighted, and not blind, and if seeing the music coming from a nicely furbished, expensive amp & HD source alters your perception of the sound, go for it! That alteration is real and modern science would not disagree. You will very likely not be able to tell it apart from a regular CD player and amp, when blindfolded, but you are usually not going to be listening while being blindfolded. So what?

This post has been edited by googlebot: Mar 16 2012, 20:16
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Porcus
post Mar 18 2012, 15:04
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QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 16 2012, 20:16) *
If your primary listening situation is sighted, and not blind, and if seeing the music coming from a nicely furbished, expensive amp & HD source alters your perception of the sound, go for it! That alteration is real and modern science would not disagree. You will very likely not be able to tell it apart from a regular CD player and amp, when blindfolded, but you are usually not going to be listening while being blindfolded. So what?


I have a better suggestion:
I am fairly certain that the FIFO buffer makes my DAC immune to any jitter from my $chickens**tmoney digital output. Knowing that the mumbojumbo segment of self-proclaimed audiophiles will have spent $$elephantsize on some oversensitive ill-constructed DAC, just because it 'reveals all the differences' between digital outputs, and then spent $$mammoth on a dejitter/reclock box which basically has a RAM the size of a 90's telephone, that gives me the pleasure of 'Gawd, what a bargain knowledge can buy' any time I hook up to my fb2k, and if I want to listen to Mahler or funeral doom, I can switch to 'heck, what has mankind come to be?'.

I know I shouldn't pull a 'my placebo is better than your placebo' without supplying the ABX logs to prove it, so let me stick to 'your placebo is not better than mine, and mine is much cheaper'. tongue.gif


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googlebot
post Mar 18 2012, 15:40
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 18 2012, 15:04) *
I am fairly certain that the FIFO buffer makes my DAC immune to any jitter from my $chickens**tmoney digital output.


It's nice, that a simple FIFO component is able to boost your musical enjoyment and assurance. smile.gif It certainly is placebo, though. A FIFO can buffer samples, but the clock rate must still be reconstructed from the S/PDIF input signal, and is thus prone to jitter. S/PDIF doesn't transmit timing information as a discrete value but implicitly and eventually analog.
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splice
post Mar 19 2012, 00:17
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QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 18 2012, 06:40) *
... the clock rate must still be reconstructed from the S/PDIF input signal, and is thus prone to jitter. ...


Er... not directly. The output clock is derived from the state of the FIFO buffer. It does vary slowly, but short-order intersample variations on the clock derived from the input S/PDIF signal are effectively suppressed. Consider the FIFO as a low-pass "jitter filter" with a cutoff frequency set by the size of the FIFO.


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googlebot
post Mar 19 2012, 20:04
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QUOTE (splice @ Mar 19 2012, 00:17) *
Er... not directly. The output clock is derived from the state of the FIFO buffer. It does vary slowly, but short-order intersample variations on the clock derived from the input S/PDIF signal are effectively suppressed. Consider the FIFO as a low-pass "jitter filter" with a cutoff frequency set by the size of the FIFO.


Sounds nice, but the clock is usually recovered by a phase locked loop. When you feed this directly into an common DAC you can still measure slight amounts of jitter at the output. Reclocking is usually only found in rather expensive or exotic audio gear.

You can get rid of the jitter completely if you just save the buffer's output to your hard disk and play it back later at a fixed rate, e. g. at 44.1kHz (you could call that manual reclocking). The buffer mechanism you describe has nothing to do with clock recovery. The FIFO is not emptied in a constant rate, but in bursts, no clock signal is recovered at this stage. And refill speed is determined the PLL recovered input clock. You can also get rid of the input jitter by letting your sound card push samples at the PLL derived rate into a memory buffer and then empty the buffer at a chosen output sample rate.* And that's indeed possible, but not what is usually happening, neither in regular playback hardware nor software, in contrast to what your simplification suggests.

I'm not claiming that this is relevant in terms of audibility. But arguing from an objectivist perspective has enough credible aspects already (e. g. demanding double blind proof). IMHO you don't support the cause by denying inaudible, but measurable, imperfections of common playback paths with oversimplification.

* Using the PLL recovered clock as you master guarantees zero data loss due to clock differences (no clock is perfect). Pulling at a fixed rate will loose data here and then, again probably inaudible most of the time, but still a property one usually does not want in a digital system.

This post has been edited by googlebot: Mar 19 2012, 20:35
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Posts in this topic
- icstm   ABX testing vs. unconscious perception/decision, enjoyment, and so on   Mar 16 2012, 12:31
- - dhromed   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 12:31) I was ...   Mar 16 2012, 12:56
- - Speedskater   In a really good ABX test: First] The listener sh...   Mar 16 2012, 13:24
- - pdq   Don't assume any limitations to how ABX testin...   Mar 16 2012, 13:32
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 16 2012, 13:32) Don...   Mar 16 2012, 15:20
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 16 2012, 10:20) QUOTE...   Mar 16 2012, 18:11
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 16 2012, 18...   Mar 16 2012, 19:20
- - icstm   QUOTE (dhromed @ Mar 16 2012, 11:56) QUOT...   Mar 16 2012, 14:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 09:10) QUOTE ...   Mar 16 2012, 14:46
- - pdq   There are many ways that one could envision determ...   Mar 16 2012, 14:20
- - KMD   I agree that being engrosed in a listening experi...   Mar 16 2012, 14:25
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 16 2012, 09:25) I agree ...   Mar 16 2012, 14:51
- - icstm   pdq - I agree that there should be a way to measu...   Mar 16 2012, 14:31
- - KMD   How about adding market discipline to an ABX test....   Mar 16 2012, 14:36
- - KMD   I wasn't refering to a live venue. By listeni...   Mar 16 2012, 15:00
- - pdq   I only mention testing over longer periods to coun...   Mar 16 2012, 15:33
- - drewfx   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 06:31) SOME T...   Mar 16 2012, 16:52
|- - icstm   @drewfx I think you are missing what I am saying....   Mar 16 2012, 17:16
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 11:16) I am s...   Mar 16 2012, 17:46
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 11:16) As KMD...   Mar 16 2012, 21:02
- - KMD   icstm - yes an EEG filts in with my idea of how ...   Mar 16 2012, 17:22
- - googlebot   If your primary listening situation is sighted, an...   Mar 16 2012, 20:16
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 16 2012, 20:16) If...   Mar 18 2012, 15:04
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 18 2012, 15:04) I am ...   Mar 18 2012, 15:40
|- - splice   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 18 2012, 06:40) .....   Mar 19 2012, 00:17
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (splice @ Mar 18 2012, 19:17) QUOTE...   Mar 19 2012, 16:56
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 19 2012, 16...   Mar 19 2012, 19:04
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (splice @ Mar 19 2012, 00:17) Er......   Mar 19 2012, 20:04
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 19 2012, 15:04) QU...   Mar 20 2012, 14:38
- - icstm   BACK TO MY OP How does THIS page change things? It...   Mar 19 2012, 12:59
- - greynol   A search of the forum should have revealed that th...   Mar 19 2012, 13:03
- - icstm   ah, did not realise that it was the much discredit...   Mar 19 2012, 14:55
|- - DonP   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 19 2012, 09:55) Has an...   Mar 19 2012, 15:09
- - icstm   yeah, I was thinking about that too. Plus they are...   Mar 19 2012, 16:09
- - icstm   A PLL is to sync to signals to the same clock, whe...   Mar 20 2012, 16:48
- - pdq   The amount of filtering that you can apply to the ...   Mar 20 2012, 17:37
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 16 2012, 07:31) SOME T...   Mar 20 2012, 18:09
- - icstm   If you are forgetting that you are doing an ABX, t...   Mar 22 2012, 12:36
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 22 2012, 07:36) If you...   Mar 23 2012, 00:08
- - greynol   http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st...   Mar 22 2012, 14:31
|- - icstm   @greynol You've lost me there, Arnold was prov...   Mar 22 2012, 17:04
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 22 2012, 11:04) Drewfi...   Mar 22 2012, 18:05
|- - icstm   QUOTE (drewfx @ Mar 22 2012, 17:05) If yo...   Mar 23 2012, 12:44
|- - Porcus   Could a signal just above the hearing threshold ca...   Mar 23 2012, 17:29
- - greynol   I guess I'd like to see you answer drewfx...   Mar 22 2012, 17:59
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 12:59) I gu...   Mar 23 2012, 00:12
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 23 2012, 00...   Mar 23 2012, 00:46
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 22 2012, 18...   Mar 23 2012, 02:06
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 22 2012, 18...   Mar 23 2012, 21:10
- - greynol   To take this further, someone investing time and/o...   Mar 22 2012, 18:23
- - greynol   Here we go again with the flying spaghetti monster...   Mar 23 2012, 01:26
- - greynol   Because of my masochistic tendencies, I had to go ...   Mar 23 2012, 06:03
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 23 2012, 05:03) Spoi...   Mar 23 2012, 10:30
- - icstm   @greynol There was a post in that old thred you p...   Mar 23 2012, 12:51
- - greynol   Are we expected to believe the more consciously at...   Mar 23 2012, 17:13
- - icstm   I agree, but nor have I seen evidence for any test...   Mar 26 2012, 14:42
- - greynol   Should I start binning appeals to the flying spagh...   Mar 26 2012, 15:01
- - icstm   but we have satellites and telescopes that would h...   Mar 27 2012, 10:41
|- - DonP   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 27 2012, 05:41) We als...   Mar 27 2012, 14:06
|- - greynol   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 27 2012, 02:41) but we...   Mar 27 2012, 19:44
- - 2Bdecided   This "subconscious perception" is a red ...   Mar 27 2012, 14:14
- - googlebot   That placebo can cause a significant effect on the...   Mar 27 2012, 19:19
|- - greynol   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 27 2012, 11:19) So...   Mar 27 2012, 19:29
|- - googlebot   I have stopped arguing with audiophiles in my soci...   Mar 27 2012, 20:03
||- - JJZolx   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 27 2012, 12:03) Ju...   Mar 28 2012, 02:30
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 27 2012, 19:29) Hope...   Mar 28 2012, 09:39
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 27 2012, 20:29) I wa...   Mar 28 2012, 10:15
- - greynol   QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 27 2012, 12:03) No...   Mar 27 2012, 20:21
- - Woodinville   A blog I wrote on the psychology behind this issue...   Mar 27 2012, 23:28
- - icstm   QUOTE (DonP @ Mar 27 2012, 13:06) QUOTE (...   Mar 28 2012, 11:06
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 28 2012, 03:06) [We ha...   Mar 28 2012, 20:39
- - knutinh   If it cannot be registered, cannot make reliable p...   Mar 28 2012, 11:33
- - icstm   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 28 2012, 19:39) ...   Mar 29 2012, 10:15
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 29 2012, 09:15) I mean...   Mar 29 2012, 11:10
||- - icstm   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 29 2012, 10:10) QU...   Mar 29 2012, 11:55
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 29 2012, 03:10) It...   Mar 30 2012, 02:09
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 29 2012, 02:15) QUOTE ...   Mar 30 2012, 02:06
|- - icstm   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 30 2012, 01:06) ...   Mar 30 2012, 10:25
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 30 2012, 02:25) QUOTE ...   Mar 30 2012, 21:09
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 30 2012, 11:25) I did ...   Apr 2 2012, 11:40
- - icstm   @Woodinville You are right, I am not well versed i...   Apr 2 2012, 10:23
|- - greynol   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 2 2012, 02:23) From wh...   Apr 2 2012, 17:29
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 2 2012, 09:29) QUOTE...   Apr 3 2012, 09:20
||- - Paulhoff   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 3 2012, 04:20) I...   Apr 4 2012, 00:35
|- - icstm   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 2 2012, 16:29) The p...   Apr 3 2012, 10:44
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 3 2012, 02:44) The fac...   Apr 3 2012, 23:32
|- - icstm   @ 'Woodinville' Actually I am completely...   Apr 4 2012, 10:24
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 4 2012, 02:24) However...   Apr 4 2012, 12:03
||- - icstm   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 4 2012, 11:03) U...   Apr 5 2012, 11:32
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 5 2012, 11:32) But I a...   Apr 5 2012, 11:47
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 5 2012, 06:32) QUOTE (...   Apr 6 2012, 16:44
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (icstm @ Apr 4 2012, 05:24) However...   Apr 4 2012, 13:01
|- - Paulhoff   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 4 2012, 08...   Apr 4 2012, 16:36
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Paulhoff @ Apr 4 2012, 11:36) QUOT...   Apr 6 2012, 16:32
- - greynol   I wouldn't necessarily assume that discussions...   Apr 3 2012, 15:27
- - icstm   Hope everyone had a good Easter break. Reading tho...   Apr 10 2012, 11:19


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